SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, Emily White. Good day. Hi Courtney Holland. How are you today? I'm pretty cool. I'm like, yeah, I'm cool. I got to have breakfast with Mafella. Uh, we went to a place that's called Wildflower, spelled F L O U R. And uh they have a breakfast thing that's called Wagyu hash, and it's a hamburger patty with a big egg on it, smothered in this pink gravy. I'm telling you. That sounds pretty breakfast thing I've ever had. I only only ever get that. It's a massive portion, which is I like that. I like there to be too much. So I can either overdo it or have snacks for later. Of course. Yes, yeah, yeah. So we we had that.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

There's this cute little bakery about a mile from my house, and that it's called Fresh Flowers. F-L-O-U-R-S. And it's all these yummy baked goods, and they do coffee and stuff. Delicious. So yeah, I I love when people take a different spin on how to spell things and incorporate that into their business.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Um I do too. Yeah. So nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Uh well, I wanted to say hello and welcome to all of our listeners and viewers.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Absolutely. Welcome. Thanks for listening, you all.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

And yeah, and watching too. We're we're video as well. So if anyone wants to see what our mugs look like, look like. Oh, I just flashed the game. Hey, that wasn't the plan. I'm 46. I don't care. I don't give a shit.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Oh God. In the in the amazing words of Haley Williams, she said, I don't give a shit. Come find me at Whole Foods. She's talking about some uh country singer she hates.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Who's Haley Williams?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

She's the lead singer of Paramour. She is adorable. Like in my next life, I would like to come back as her. She's she's petite. She dances like a wild animal. Like, she is, you'll have to look her up. She's pressed. I will.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

I'll look her up. You can get her on the show.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

She was on uh Amy Polar's podcast. That's the one where she's like, she's like, I don't give a shit. Come find me a Whole Foods.

unknown 2:14

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

We have just as many viewers and listeners as Amy Polar, so I don't know why we couldn't get her on. We could absolutely get her on. She's probably already tried, but we, you know.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

We're huge in Denmark. And Canada. Fucking Denmark and y'all. Come to Virginia. I'll take you out for some swaggy hash. Yeah. It's so and I don't have never liked hash. I don't even really know what hash is, but it's so good.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

This is like just potatoes and stuff, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:44

The potatoes are on the bottom, which are done excellently. Like I generally don't really like potatoes like in breakfast food. And I love potatoes. We could have an old episode on it.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

We could have a whole episode on potatoes because I've really never met one I didn't like. Really? I don't like baked potatoes.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

I don't like chunks of potatoes. I don't like potatoes in soup. I like sweet potato. If you put sweet potatoes, now there. I will I've never met a sweet potato I don't love. Never.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

I only like sweet potato fries.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

That's it. You can't eat like a straight-up sweet potato? Uh-uh. It's too sweet. Are you fucking with me? And I'm not fucking with you. I don't like sweet foods. I've I'm not sweet. I'm savory. All the way. I'm a salty one.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

You don't even you don't need like you add a little cayenne pepper and a little bit of salt to a sweet potato, and that's fucking savory, bitch.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

I'm sure it is. It's just a little too sweet for me. So I need them fried with lots of salt and like ketchup or something. I'd be surprised. I know. I like to surprise people.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

I you really do. And you got me. Like I really eat healthy aside from the jelly beans. Like I'm a pretty healthy eater. I just sound like a monster because I'm always eating jelly beans.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I know. So I'm going out of town on a few days back to the UK for work, and my boyfriend was like, You you need to watch what you're eating when you you do all these trips and stuff. I'm like, well, I do. I always get poached fish and salads and all this stuff. And it's because whenever I'm with him, I'm always like, let's get the nachos and I want some French fries and because it gives me an excuse to eat like shit when I'm with him. Because he'll do it. Yeah. So he thinks that I'm just this pig who con And I'm like, have you looked in my refrigerator at stuff about vegetables and like chicken?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Have you looked at you as a human being and what you carry around? It's not much. You are ripped and fit as a fiddle.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Yeah, thanks. But yeah, I do like dirty food. I really do. Um I'm not gonna. I like some dirty food. Anything with mayonnaise in it.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Oh. I love mayonnaise. That was a really big moment. And mayonnaise loves me. Yeah, yeah. Eat a dick. I love mayonnaise. That needs to be a t-shirt. Eat a dick. I love mayonnaise. Gross.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Actually, they could take that in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Uh there's like an East Coast, West Coast thing. So you I think out on the East Coast you guys have Hellman's mayonnaise. Is that true? Dukes. Hellman's and Dukes, yeah. Okay. And we only get best foods out here, which is the same brand as Hellman's. I but it is. For some reason, it doesn't taste the same to me. I I prefer Hellman's. Um I do like Hellman's. And that could be a fun psychosomatic thing that it's exactly the same, just with a different label in my mind per se. Oh, I would love to have a mayonnaise taste test.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Oh, right. Yeah. I would love to see if I can identify the mayonnaise. I know I do miracle whip because that stuff is that's the devil. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Well, speaking of the devil's sauce. Ooh, yeah. Let's talk about the devil's sauce. Well, it's not really the devil's sauce. I just don't know how to segue into introducing our guest today who uh we are very fortunate to have this guest on because his story was cool. Definitely not the plan. Everyone, I need you to turn your volumes up and pay attention to this guest today because his story is simply incredible. And I cannot wait for everyone to join this conversation. So we are very fortunate to be joined by Kurt Campbell. Kurt is in his email, Kurt to everyone else. Uh he is based in Virginia. He's married with two children. He grew up in northern New Jersey. Uh the kind of childhood where stability was not a given. He has a GED, but no college degree. And in 2004, he walked into a bank and slid a note across to the teller and has no memory of doing this. He woke up, he woke up the next morning in a jail cell with no memory of how he got there. And a year later, after spending an entire year waiting to be sentenced, a judge then told him he received five to seven years. And in that moment, he kind of, yeah, he made a decision not to waste a single minute of his time being incarcerated. But today, he is the senior director of developer relations for the Slack platform at Salesforce, one of the nation's world's yeah, like one of the biggest tech companies out there. He's the senior works there.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Yeah. He has written one book thus far called Effective Dev Real, which was published earlier this year. He wrote a medium piece called quote unquote, I'm an imposter that still gets shared to this day. Everyone, we will have a link for that in our show notes. But go to Medium, the website medium.com and look for Kurt Kempel and his piece called I'm an Imposter. He has also written two peer-reviewed papers in physics letter B. He used AI as his own quote unquote university, college, his institute to teach him how to do this, write these papers. He had no background in physics, no training whatsoever. He taught himself this. And quote, he shared, he shared with us his second paper on this. And I opened it up. And the first page is just kind of like what this theory is all about. And if it's basic English language, the second page just goes into all of these equations and physics. But I wrote him back and I was like, Kurt, we're gonna have to have you on for a second episode just to teach Courtney and myself like what this is. Explain this to us as we're second graders, and he agreed to do it. So we'll have him back on to come. Oh, cool. So we'll have him back on to teach us all about physics because physics to me is so fascinating. And so this his second paper is about black holes and the physics of all of that. And it's whichever is so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. No one has ever kind of come up with this theory that he wrote about before. So he's the first doing this, you know, submitted it for peer review. It's just incredible. So the power of knowledge and kind of his power of resilience, but going into prison saying, I'm not gonna waste a moment of the time that I'm here. And so I'm so excited to have him share his story of how he got there to where he is today. Welcome, Kurt. Welcome to That Wasn't the Plan. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. Oh my gosh. Thank you for coming on today and sharing your story with everyone.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Absolutely. So excited to hear it from the horse's mouth.

SPEAKER_04 9:47

Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to just uh uh share it. I feel like any opportunity that I can get to shed some light on I'd say like a lot of stigma um that exists, especially around folks. I won't dive too much into it. I know we're in the intro, but like around, you know, like uh second chances, advocacy, formally incarcerated, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Absolutely so amazing. Yeah. I gave Courtney the rundown on kind of you're from New Jersey. You in 2004, you walked into a bank and slid a note across to the teller next morning. I believe you woke up in jail with no memory of how you got there. And so that's kind of where I guess we're gonna start is take me to that Friday afternoon. You were in a TGI Fridays parking lot, and you had just realized what you'd done.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

So it's a little bit. I'll run it back just a little bit. So I was in actually North Carolina at the time living there. I grew up a lot in northern Jersey and in uh New York, like right along the border there. But I moved a lot East Coast, like a lot when I was a kid. So and then I was older now, right? So about 20 years old or so. I moved to North Carolina, I was living in Wilmington, and this is where it happened. And so actually, um, I don't remember being in the Fridays parking lot, but that is where I met the police. And I know this because I read my documents, like my intake documents, the statements from police officers and everything like that. Like I was able to get all of my case files, but I have no actual recollection of the event. Yeah, yeah. So uh essentially what happened was during a Xanax blackout, I did that part was correct. I slid a note across, I guess, to the teller of the bank, right? And yeah, like they were as confused, like they it was in their statement. They're like, I didn't know if this was like real or like some kind of gag or something, but then they yeah, it's like it's like a very interesting situation. I'm probably like spaced to debt it out, right? Yeah, literally, right? And so, you know, so I think it was just like a weird experience, but yeah, sure enough, I left that bank with money and bam, right? That's a charge.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

You actually left with money. I didn't realize that.

SPEAKER_04 11:53

Yeah, so that's the thing. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah. They just like gave me the money that was like in the drawer, like, okay, and I'm like, thank you, and walked out with it, right? I don't want to like Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like it's a lot, it's serious. I don't want to like laugh about it like ha ha, like you know what I mean? Like there's a lot of accountability here, right? And stuff like that. But in hindsight, it is kind of wild, right? It's just like almost comical, right? And so, yeah, but like somebody got the license plate, you know, they saw me like walking out, like holding this money, and they're like, what is up with this person? Uh so what happened was the police had called at the time my girlfriend's sister, and that's whose car I had used. And so they were about to get in trouble. Yeah, they got like a search warrant for our apartment, and they went in and it was like a mess. And I was like, so I ended up turning myself in, right? But like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, you know, at least I still have sense to do that, not like ruin other people's lives. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

I mean, yeah, that's taking responsibility right there. I've got two quick questions. Sorry to backtrack from the police reports and everything. Uh A, what did the notes say? And how much money did they give you?

SPEAKER_04 13:03

Yes. That's a good question and a good question. I don't remember exactly what the note said, but I I want to say it said something like, This is a robbery, give me the money in the register, right? I don't remember the exact words. I really don't. Yeah. Um, but the amount was very low. It was like just over $2,000.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

So not much. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Yeah, not much.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

I know, right? But still.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

From what I recall from our initial conversation, there was something in that note that was very incriminating that was the reason why you got such a heavy sentence. Is that true? Or was it after they searched the apartment was the reason why?

SPEAKER_04 13:43

It was after. It was twofold. So when they searched the apartment, they did find a weapon, like a firearm in our apartment, but they actually found it in my roommate's room. So uh, and it was their gun. But then I was already in trouble and the police were there because of me and everything like that, right? So they gave me the charge. And so that's why I had robbery charge and possession of a firearm charge. And technically, I was already a felon because when I was like 18 uh or 17, turning 18, I stole a car to leave Virginia. Like it's like I was trying to get away from my father at the time, and I went back up to New Jersey, actually, northern New Jersey, where uh I still had some friends and where I felt like I could stay, but I ended up getting like a grand theft auto charge. And then uh, yeah, so I had that felony and I like did probation, but it was still on my record. So now I have possession of a firearm by a felon charge.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Got it.

SPEAKER_04 14:36

And so, yeah, yep, yeah. And so then that with the robbery, they like gave I forget what class felonies they are, but they're serious. And I didn't know at the time like how much of an effect it would have been. Like they essentially pushed me up into like what's considered violent crime, essentially, right? And like, you know, it was a very non-violent encounter. Right. Um, yeah, I didn't know if I knew what I knew now, like I got very good at the law, like uh post facto or whatever, right? Like after the fact, because I was just like, what happened here? And I was in jail for a year, and like I had already sat there for a year. And like jail is way worse than prison, um, which in itself is a thing. And so, like at that point, I was really just ready to go to prison so I could just go outside.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:20

So I'd not been outside.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Oh my gosh. In jail?

SPEAKER_04 15:25

No, you don't have the same rights because you're being held for trial, and so you're just in like this like purgatory state, and the same laws that um apply to you in rights post-sentencing do not apply pre-sentencing. So I would go out into a bricked in area and it had a screened over thing, and I could like see the sky for like but it was like metal grates and then the sky.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Wow. Oh my gosh. My heart just like how old were you at this time, Kurt?

SPEAKER_04 15:55

So I'd be 22 years old.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

You were a baby. It just sounds like you were it was a hard soul searching period of time for you during that, because that's all I hear. I mean, I'm in recovery. I've been in recovery for 14 years, and so I tend to laugh, like, you know, if you go to a meeting, which I'm sure you've been to one of the recovery meetings, like we laugh at the ridiculous things we've done. But um, but yeah, but I also hear the hurt, like that that, because it comes from somewhere, right? Like the making those choices.

SPEAKER_04 16:26

Yeah, it came from like a whole lot of a childhood where I just like had lack of stability, a lot of trauma to process and deal with, no real, I'd say like access to resources within illegal means. So like I started using drugs and selling drugs as a way to like generate capital. Like I had to survive, take care of myself. Um, yeah. And but you know, those things quickly morph, right? And like become mixed up with when you don't know how to process trauma or your emotions or deal with like honestly, life situations you shouldn't have to deal with at 14 and 15 years old. Um, but you know, there you are, right? Uh, so I use drugs very much as like an escape from my reality in two ways. One, like to generate money, because that helped me escape that reality of like instability and not having anything. But then also using drugs to just give my mind some peace sometimes. But then eventually you hit the inflection point where it's not providing you peace, right? Like it's actually taking your peace. Yeah. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

So fast forward a year, you've been in jail and you're waiting your sentencing, and now you're in front of a judge. What do they say? And how is your lawyer handling this? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:39

Yeah. So I saw my lawyer probably twice, like uh the entire time, the entire year that that I was uh awaiting sentencing. And then it's like, do you want to take it to trial and all this stuff? And you know, they're pushing me very hard not to. They're just pushing me to take the very first like deal that is offered. I am one of the many cases that they're just trying to move right along, right? Um, so they really do much and they gave me like counter advice. Like, I would have spoken up for myself and like actually said more to the judge had I had known. And uh, but I didn't. I let my lawyer talk. You know, they said that's what you should do, but they said like nothing, you know what I mean? Uh and the sentencing bracket was like the judge can do anywhere from here or there, and you plead guilty, and then they give you the sentence. Like it's you know what I mean? It's not like you know exactly what you'll get, it's like within the parameters, okay, and the judge determines the severity, right? And I didn't advocate for myself. That is a lesson that I learned. Like, I will never again not advocate for myself. Like if someone's telling me not to say something and I feel that they have not advocated for me, you best believe like I'm going to advocate for myself. Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah. And you were 23 at this time.

SPEAKER_04 18:51

So yeah, yeah. So trying to do my math. I'm not very good, even with like I'm 44 now. Yeah. So this would have been 2004. Yeah, I would have been 23, about 23 years old, like just turned 23.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

And trying to advocate for yourself at 23, that's so I mean, I didn't learn to advocate until I got into my 40s. Like it's it's the same complicated thing. It is.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

And I think it is not to derail us from the conversation, but yeah, it wasn't until I got cancer that I learned to advocate for myself and speak up to whomever is trying to tell me you should do this. And it's like, it doesn't feel right with me. That is not what I want from myself.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

So that's it. That's it. And that's very powerful. And I'm so happy for you.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Um I mean, it it's a lot, and you know, different levels of trauma. Everybody's got that. But yeah, it's how we come out and the things that we do to better ourselves, understand ourselves more. And I definitely woke up to my needs and what I wanted for myself. Same thing, probably with you. I'm sorry, but we can go back to you now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

No, please, that's that's amazing. Like, I'm so excited to learn more about you. Yeah, because I I think it just shows, like, you know, it's not specific to a person. I think everybody should be advocating for themselves. And I hope that they get the chance. I hope it's not a rock bottom thing, right? But like that they learn to basically just love yourself enough to really just say who cares like what else is happening or what anyone might think. Because at the end of the day, like, I need to say what I need to say about myself. And I I had to actually enact this, yeah. Um, because uh like I said, I was on probation, right? And so I was already a felon for that, the grand theft auto charge from being a teenager. Well, I never actually finished my probation. I didn't even know this and realized this, right? But like I didn't think about it. But it technically meant I had a warrant out in northern New Jersey. Yeah, yeah. So when I was released from prison, I actually got out of prison near December, but I was immediately transferred to New Jersey to jail for that to deal with that.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 20:57

So now yeah, so we didn't even talk about this before. So listen to this because it's wild. So I'm in the same situation that give me a public defender, they're not doing anything and like pattern recognition. I'm like, I've been here, so I'm doing it all on my own. I'm preparing my own case. I'm doing this, I've uh compiled everything, every certificate that I got, every course that I finished, every training that I did, all of it. Everything I put it all together. Lawyer told me the exact same thing. Let me do the talking, don't say anything. Went up there, said almost not a word. They were trying to give me another year. They wanted me to go to prison for another year uh in New Jersey, right? For that, for the violation of permission. And so he said it. And the judge is like, I see, like no one's doing anything. I said, Your honor. And then I just went in, like I opened it up, I dumped out the envelope just full of certificate and certificate and college courses and all this stuff. And I said, Yeah, I said, I spent the last five years. Incarcerated, doing absolutely nothing but maximizing every minute and working on myself. I said, My mother and my grandmother are right behind me. I haven't been able to depend on them. I've missed weddings. I've missed funerals. Like, I get it. There's not a single thing another year of prison is going to teach me I've not already learned. I was like, so you can do that. You can absolutely do that. Yeah, yeah. I said, but it's not going to teach me anything. I get it. You know, like I get it. I put in the work and I'm like, let me out and let me do the work. Let me show you.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

Uh and the judge was like, we'll deliberate on this. I still had no idea. I had to go back to the jail and wait. And they're just like, we'll let you know, like, what's going to happen. And so uh the judge ended up, they called my name. They're like, Kemp, well, grab your stuff. You're being released. Time serve. January 10th, 2010. Yeah. And so I was like, Y'all can have it all. I didn't grab a single thing. Yeah. I was like, please keep it all. Yep. Yep. It walked right out.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Yeah. Let's go back to like the beginning. Then when you found out the judge has now given you your first sentence, you're in jail, and now they're sentencing you to prison. How many years and what immediately went through your brain when you heard that? And you were like, I'm going to be here for however many years.

SPEAKER_04 23:21

Yeah. They broke it down. It was like months. And I want to say it was like 60 to 72 or 60 to like 80 something. It's basically like five to seven years was like the term. And I did get my time served, right? So I mean I was in jail for a year. It meant I had four to six more years to go. Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

And like it hit me.

SPEAKER_04 23:41

I've never had anything in my life hit me as much as that. Most times growth and change does tend to happen, like more spread out and gradually. This was like uh an epiphany, uh bifurcation. It was literally I shedded an entire being of who I was. And I literally went back, I was sitting in that cell, and I'm like, half a decade, half a decade. And I'm just thinking back over my life, and I'm like, I'm already not off to a great start. I didn't really have a lot. Like I had my GD, you know, but I had no trade skills. I have no nothing. Now I've got a felony criminal record. I've got five years of incarceration to get through. And then I'm supposed to get out and try to live my life, right? I said, I'm not going to waste a second of this time because out of jail and prison, I knew I'd have access to more resources and things like that. And I just said, like, I will take every single training that becomes available. I'll read any book that I can get my hands on. I'll learn new things. I will just ensure that when I get out, I've set myself up, I've closed that gap. Like there'll be a gap, but I've done everything in my power to ensure that upon my release, like I'm in as good as a possible position as I can be in to actually succeed. You know? Absolutely. Um and it was resolute and it did not change, and I never lost that. And like it held, and I spent every waking moment that I possibly could just working on myself. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

So what did you do? Teach yourself how did that start? What did your first week or first month there when you had this epiphany and you were like, all right, but what's the first step?

SPEAKER_04 25:24

Rehab and like awareness and recovery was literally my first step. So um I was sent to, yeah, I was sent to a place called Poke Youth Center. So it's for young adults who are incarcerated and have violent crimes. I mean, we're talking some of these might be like kids who are 18 or 19 and have murder charges, life sentences and stuff like that, right? It's awful, it's very bad. It is, it is, it's one of scary plays because you're surrounded by a lot of people who feel like they don't have a lot to live for.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:53

Um, you know, and then at the same time, it's also just scary because it was a very confusing and rough time for myself. I went through a lot of brain fog in jail. And like because I had that year sober, like that's what really allowed me that clarity to have even have that moment at sentencing to really evaluate my life at that level. Um, and so I think like there for me, my biggest fear was you either go to prison college or you try to take like whatever courses there are to build your own college. Those are the only two options in prison, you know? Uh, and so every day is a struggle to just maintain yourself and try to move forward and progress without upsetting the system and balance of prisons, which is a very different and complicated system. Um, but to your point, yeah, exactly. But to your point, I immediately started going to NA and meetings and working through the program. And they even have courses so you could do multiple weeks. Yeah. So it wasn't even just like meetings, like it was like deeply invested. Um yeah, so I was doing a lot of work exactly. Stayed in a lot of recovery programs, and then from there, just like I said, I started reading and then taking any sort of courses and classes that were available to me that I knew were related to some sort of job. Um I'm not a certified HVAC technician.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Hell yeah. Now that is a valuable trade skill. Lord help us. That is especially in Virginia and the humidity. Good. I know, right?

SPEAKER_04 27:23

Yeah. Um, but yeah, I have a bunch of raid certifications, dog training, landscape design, like um and then yeah, like literally anything that was available, I took any course. And then eventually uh I started coming across it because North Carolina, their prison system is it's a bunch of camps, they call them, right? But you move around them a lot, like you're never at one place for too long. They're constantly moving inmates around. Um, and so every time I'll go to a new place, new things would be available, or I'd have a new library to access. Yeah. So pluses and minuses. It was terrible because you end up never getting too close to anybody because at any moment, one of y'all just be like shipped off in the middle of the night. You know what I mean? So it was like very isolating intentionally, uh, but it did provide me access to information, which I've come to realize, you know, it's almost like a headagogy. I basically just taught myself what I needed to learn and then would just pursue that information and like build my own map through the territory, so to speak. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Did you find that other people were working as as hard as you were? Did you connect with people? Like, was that something that you found in other folks there?

SPEAKER_04 28:37

Pockets, but it's I it didn't really feel much the same, to be honest. Like, yes, there, of course, there, you know, and I also don't want to make that sound like everybody in prison is like up to nefarious things because that's not it either. No, not at all. But I don't, yeah, yeah. I I but I don't think there were a lot of people who were experiencing what I was experiencing, to be honest, right? Like a lot of people are trying to find ways to pass the time. It is a very stressful and anxiety-inducing place.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:06

And so, you know, I definitely don't fault like anyone for it. I just happened to hit at an age um where I had like the energy and the drive and where I still felt my sentence was short enough, you know, and like everyone has their nuance, right? Their own circumstances. But like, yeah, it was like the the chemical makeup of my situation just created a lot of energy and then space to like do the work. You know, I I have had more stability. Yeah, the environment was terrible, but I had more stability in prison than I had previously in my entire life.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 29:40

I knew I had somewhere to sleep, I knew I would have food, I had access to like exercise. I could go out on the yard, I had a library, I was taking classes, nobody was forcing me to pay for it, or I have to like leave it, you know. Like tried to do these things before, and I could never do it. And here I just had pure opportunity to just spend all of my do you know how unusual that is to spend all of your time on the pursuit of knowledge and growth? Like I would just read multiple books like a day because I had nothing else to do. You get up, you do count, I'm reading my book through count, I'm reading my book, walking to the chow hall, I'm sitting down, eating, reading my book, I'm going back, reading my book, hours on the yard, then I go off and work, I come back, I'm reading my book, I go to class, I come back, study, I'm reading another book. There's really nothing else to do. Yeah, it is, right? But yeah, but it was. And that's the thing. Like, I always think about the positive of that. But yes, yeah, no one really gets it. It's like a fellowship. Like, I literally want fellowships so bad the more I get into independent research as well. Because I'm like, I want to go back to that feeling. I always say I would be a professional learner. If that was like a profession, if I could like enroll in colleges and then give reviews and critiques and stuff or something like that. Honestly, like I would love that so much. Like, yeah, that's never left me. I in my living room, I just have a chair, bookshelves, and books all around. I just sit there surrounded by books. Like, how lovely.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

So, how long into now that you're in prison, that sentence did you kind of get into computers?

SPEAKER_04 31:13

Yeah, so that was actually about two years before my release. So, two years after I was in prison. So, a lot of the stuff that I had come across was uh more like physical trades and like uh you know construction-based trades, right? So I did carpentry, electrical, like I said, plumbing, like everything, H V A C. Oh, welder. I'm uh like a welder certified welder. I even worked a job in in prison. I like rode in a van, went to a welding, like a fabrication shop, and I was welding all day long. Welding.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Pretty freaking curl.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:48

Yeah. Yeah. So like picked up a ton of like skills. You know what I mean? Yeah. But then I yeah, right. I started to come across like more college courses. And then um I took a bunch of everything like business management, starting your own business. And then I started taking like uh it was a class on basically Microsoft Suite. So you learned like Word, you learned Excel, you learned, I forget what their database thing is. It's like Access DB or something like that. But that's yeah, I had no computer experience like at all prior to this. Like downloading MP3s on like LimeWire was like the extent of like my exactly was like the extent of like my computer usage, knowledge of the internet, any of that. Yeah. And I even typed like two fingers, like things. I took a typing course and I was like getting up there, you know. I was like 80, 90 words per minute and stuff. I was like, I got nothing to do. The computer, no, we have no internet, but like all computers come installed with like a couple songs on them. So I would just listen to those same like four songs on repeat and just be like typing for hours.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

That's let's you literally.

SPEAKER_04 32:51

It's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

God, yeah. And wow. So you then taught yourself how to build an HTML, HTML file. And the first time you hit refresh on that browser, you said it unlocked something for you. What happened in that moment? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

Yeah. So yeah. So I graduated from learning about applications, but I had already learned Word. And I think that was kind of what made it click for me because I'm like, oh, I make a H1 tag and Word, a heading. That's a heading, right? And then I'll put a paragraph here. When you write HTML tags, it's literally called H1. Like, and then it was called P for paragraph and B for bold. And I'm like, wait a minute. This is the exact same thing I just did in Word, except now I'm just writing the program and I saved it, and then the browser's reading it. So it's basically just like Word reading this document. And then, but wait, these files just come over the internet, and then all that happens is the browser reads them. It was like like it just completely unlocks. Right? The whole internet just unlocks for me. I'm like, oh, it just passed the files around, like back and forth or data back and forth. The computer knows how to parse it, read it, and depending on what it is that it's doing, you feed it to whatever UI and it should know how to parse it. And that's how the whole internet works. That's how I understood like the idea of like rendering something. But then when the mouseover event with JavaScript, like at the end of the book in the class, like that's when that the dynamic half of the internet clipped for me. When I add something to a cart, what happens? When I click a button to download a song from LimeWire, like I understood now, like how that worked. Like somebody programmed that. You know, it's like someone told it what to do. And then I just for me, I just never really built a distinction between programming a Word document because you are programming, right? And then programming an HTML file or a JavaScript file. Like to me, it's just programming a file, you know. Right. Uh and so yeah, it just kind of unlocked everything. And that happened about after I was getting through typing. I took more courses where I learned how to take apart computers, install operating systems, like I learned about all that stuff. And so then when I got introduced to the web technology, HTML and JavaScript, I already had like a good foundation, like first principles foundation of how computers worked. And then I hit me that, oh, they're just talking to each other and they're doing that across the internet. And I was like, oh, okay. And that's like honestly been a huge help in my career because I still distill like an API is the same thing, right? Like it's like nothing is any different. Somebody somewhere is writing a little bit of something into a file and somewhere else is processing it. It's either rendering it or reading it and executing it, but like legitimately, to me, there's foundationally no difference between sitting down and writing a Google Doc or sitting down and writing a JavaScript file or a Kotlin or Java or whatever thing. Because I just understand something else is gonna read it and then do something with it, you know?

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Wow. Kurt, can I just say that I think I learned just now more about the internet than I've learned in my whole life? Like there were moments I was like, oh, whoa, you've got a gift, sir. Wow. Thank you. I appreciate that. I will be coding now, excuse me. Honestly.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

I mean, whoa. Yeah. What did the other inmates think of you with your teaching yourself how to do all this coding and computer stuff? Were you kind of an anomaly there, or were at their other inmates as well doing this?

SPEAKER_04 36:33

I mean, there were definitely other people in the class. I like very humbly, yes, I was a bit of a an anomaly. Like I was the only person to clear through the book, continue on. I was getting like so far advanced into it that I had my teacher bring me in just data on thumb drives, and then I would just build websites. So he brought me in a bunch of animals. So I made a website for a zoo, brought me in like a bunch of housing stuff. I did like a real estate website. Like, like there, I was helping people debug and solve problems. Like again, we had no internet, there's no Stack Overflow, there's no nothing. And we're trying to write out these JavaScript files. You miss a comma, a semicolon, forget a closing parenthesis, any of these things. You know, and when you have no experience, it's very hard. But what it did is it really taught me like how to teach myself how to learn. And it also taught me metacognition to like think about how I think and learn. Um, it yeah, which is very interesting. And I've come to realize I don't know that a lot of people do that. And I think that was what made me such an anomaly because I wasn't just spending the time learning. But I again, I'd grown up in no school. Like the last grade I finished was really the eighth grade, right? Um, yeah, I mean, I made it through a lot of my freshman, I would do well in you know, my classes to a degree. Anything that didn't require me to like actually take effort outside of the classroom.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Absolutely, right?

SPEAKER_04 37:55

I just wasn't doing, but like things that I could do, I would do state tests, I would always place well on. Um wow. But yeah, but I would fail. I failed my freshman year, I failed my sophomore year, I dropped out in my junior year and got my GED, right? But that was it. It was like the only education that I had. But like for this situation, it ended up being more of a blessing than a curse. Um, I like to think of like uh classical education as you know, you're kind of guided by a sherpa. They give you a map, they say, trust me, this is a good map. I'm gonna guide you through this map. And at the end, you'll have reached a destination, and then there you meet a new Sherpa, and then they guide you along the next one. Right? But like, I love it. Yeah, yeah. But I had to kind of more understand the territory first, roughly, as much as I could, and then say, what kind of map is gonna help me best get through here? And then kind of plot that map myself. I was more of a cartographer at this point, right? I'm stepping out and mapping a bit, and then that would release and expose more of the territory, and then I would have to plot myself through the next, like, you know, um, extension, right? Or or concentric circle of knowledge, like that I would introduce myself to. Um, and so it's just a very different style, but like now I know exactly how I learn best, and so I mix the methodologies together, and so it allows me to move through like subjects pretty quickly because I focus on like uh less on details and more on structural things. One thing I did learn from not having the internet and then getting out and realizing what's available on it. Oh boy, that's something actually we should take a second to talk about. So here's someone who is like a freaking information omnivore. Like I basically just everything, and then you let me out and give me access to the internet. Everything's available to me now.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Yeah, like everything. How did you leave the house?

SPEAKER_04 39:50

Like I kind of didn't for a long time, right? But that's the whole point. Yeah, yeah. For the next two years, I was just everything YouTube series and like paid courses, and then just books that are online, and now I can listen to books while I'm watching this video, while I'm writing this code, while I'm doing this. It was like it was ridiculous, you know? Uh it was absolutely ridiculous. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

So you were released in January of 2010 and you walked out. What was the strangest part of that first week? Like the most mundane part, not the emotional one per se.

SPEAKER_04 40:26

I think it was the lack of force structure that like really got to me. And I don't think you realize that as much. But you know, my entire day was forced structure, right? It's like, yeah, there are times in which I had the freedom to do something within that forced structure, but like I can't violate count. I can't not be present at the foot of my bunk during count time. I have to eat exactly when it's chow time, whether I'm hungry or not, you know, like I have to report here or do that or follow this line or not go here or do that. And that is immovable, right? So it like becomes almost like habitual, like uh and so or ritual might even be a better term. And so then uh when I was out, it was like that freedom was like almost overwhelming, right?

SPEAKER_03 41:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:22

Um yeah, I didn't know what to do with myself a lot of times. The other thing, too, that was weird is like in prison. Remember, I had this drive that like I want to get myself as prepared as I can for when I get out, right? Yeah, and that had been my driving motivation the entire time. And now I'm out. So now I'm going, well, fuck. I'm sorry, like frequently. Yeah, okay, okay, cool. Literally, then yeah, like, you know, that was a very scary moment. Like, fuck, okay, now I have to do the thing. Here I am. I've spent five years preparing for the thing. Now I actually have to show up and do the thing. And so for me, those first few weeks after I got out were a lot of turmoil and even negative speak starting to come back in my previous life starting to surface and being like, yeah, there's no way. You know what I mean? Like immediately, and I had just proven to myself, I survived the prison industrial complex and I came out of it better than when I went in. And that is like unheard of. You know what I mean? It's so difficult to do. Yeah, yeah. And but here I am now, actually out in the world, terrified.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Those negative comments, that self-doubt, yeah, yeah of failure.

SPEAKER_04 42:38

Memories, trying all. I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Gosh, yeah. He had told me in our call that the schedule wasn't the hardest part of getting out. The hard part was learning how to be around people again.

SPEAKER_04 42:49

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that is like the I would say because after the first few weeks, that's when I really had to experience uh being around people. So I went to col I signed up for college, right? So I want to continue, I know, right? Yeah, it just could not stop, right? Yeah, yeah. I uh they didn't have web development, but they had web design. So I did web design and a minor in art. Uh I was like, well, I'm like learning how to build this stuff, right? Oh, and art, I didn't even tell you about that. So I used to make money by doing artwork in prison. So I would draw portraits or I would like draw on envelopes, I would even do tattoos to make money and I would buy books. So once I got introduced to coding, I needed to continue to source information and libraries didn't always have it, but we get book catalogs. I read like um XML for dummies. I read like soap, which isn't even a protocol that's really used anymore, but I didn't know at the time, you know. So I was just reading books on whatever. Whatever I get my hands on. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. Uh so yeah, I was going to college. Uh, and that was really when I had to like in the in working, getting a job. I had to start like interacting very closely with people and coordinating with people and engaging with them and doing It under social norms of like not in prison and in prison, the social norms are so drastically different.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:10

So drastically different.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

You said you had 30 W-2s in one year.

SPEAKER_04 44:17

At least I think it's more actually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Oh my god. Wow. Um and that checking the felony box versus not checking it when you applied for jobs. Um, what did you learn like the honest world at that time?

SPEAKER_04 44:31

That's the thing. I learned almost this. Like it comes back to like the advocating for yourself. Like, so here's more specifically what happened is this. Like a lot of states still have, like, you have to check a box. Like, they can ask, like, have you ever been convicted of a felony? Like, ever. Jeez, that's you know, like, yes, I have. Now, if I wanted to get a job at McDonald's, I probably couldn't. Because in my state of Virginia, they can look back as long as they want. I would have to check that box. I literally have a career in tech, but like I couldn't be a manager at McDonald's because of my criminal record from something as 20 years ago now, like literally, right? Um, but to your point, so here's what happened. I got out, I'm like, all right, you know, terrified, but we're gonna do the thing. I'm applying to everything that I can, anywhere that has a job open, but I'm being very honest, checking it. Yes, you know, I did. I just, you know, writing out everything, but I also did X, Y, and Z while I was there, worked as a welder, you know, like I have actual work experience, not even like I've been not at a job, right? Like, um, you know, I've been working. Uh, I never got called back, literally never, just not even a single time. You gotta imagine, like they probably have tons of applications coming in for these exact same jobs, right? And a lot of people aren't checking that box. So, like the logical thing to do is kind of just shuffle that into another pile, right? According to the law, right? As it stands in a lot of stains. So what I started doing was just checking no, right? Because like I had to work, you know? And I said, well, let's see if they actually run these background checks or not. And so I would check no and I would immediately get called back. And so I would go in, interview, and get the job. I worked everywhere. I worked at Coles, TJ, Max, a bunch of retail places, fast food places, like anywhere I could literally get a job. But they would always, after two weeks, be like, Oh, we ran a background check and you haven't found me and you didn't tell us, and that's a shame because now we're gonna let you go. And I'm like, Well, you know, it's kind of not a shame because you wouldn't call me back anyway, but I will take my paycheck that you were legally obligated to give me. I've already filled out applications for the next 17 businesses and jobs that I could find and have interviews with them. So that's how I accrued so many W-2s, is because I would get the job, work a couple weeks, maybe up to a month, they would do complete the background check, and they would let me go. And I just knew that that was gonna come, right? I knew that was inevitable. There's something I could not control or change. But what I could control is being prepared for that moment and ensure that I always just had the next one lined up because there's nothing they can do about me just getting more jobs, right? Like can't stop me. Uh and and that's what I mean. I don't feel bad at all about not checking that box because, in a sense, I was advocating for myself in a system that was purpose built to prevent me from actually succeeding and trying to send me right back to the place where I just was, and I had no desire to go back there.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

But then you got a job at Gold Mobile.

SPEAKER_04 47:29

I certainly did.

unknown 47:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

And two weeks in, your manager, yeah, like tells you that they had forgotten to run a background check. Is that true?

SPEAKER_04 47:38

This is true. Yeah. All right. So I'm about almost two years out now. So we're at like 2012. Yeah. And I've run out of grant money, so I can't keep going to school.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 47:50

I'm so tired of doing the job hopping thing. Uh, and then also I started like I did find a couple jobs that like paid cash, and so that would work for a while. But like I did want to build up like a credible work history and stuff. So I continuously doing that. For a while, I was doing like sales, like solar stuff and other things, you know, like whatever, whatever somebody would hire me for. Um, but I had built up enough skill where I said I feel confident. Everybody kept being like, dude, this is ridiculous. Your website's like really good. Like, uh I think you're ready to maybe start actually trying to work in tech. So I started applying for jobs. Uh I applied to a place called Gold Mobile. Uh, they did like actually a bunch of mobile stuff for blackberries and things, but this was right around the time like mobile web development was really starting to see that shift right after like iPhones and all that fun jazz. Um, so I applied, I get the job, I'm like, cool. They never say a thing about a background check, right? And so two weeks in, I'm like cat on the keyboard, la-da-da-da-da. Yeah. And then like managers, like, oh, hey, we forgot to give you the paperwork for your background check. I'm gonna go ahead and slide that to you real quick. And my whole world like collapses. You know what I mean? I'm like doing well, liking the people that I work with. So, and the same day, uh, my boss also told me about a new project that we had just landed for kitchen aid, right? And so the goal was we were gonna build like these uh you scan the QR code and it would take you to the mobile web page. Like, so you're in store and you could like read all the facts about like the uh blenders and mixers and all that, right? Like right there, pretty cutting edge, like for 2012, 2013. And uh he's like, So we gotta like basically build the prototype, a page layout and design and framework and all this stuff. Uh and he's like, We got two weeks, right? So I'm like, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. So I take that uh and I take that knowledge about they're about to do my background check, and I go home and I just work until the morning. Like it's like three, four a.m. Wow, uh, and I finish the complete two-week project. Done. The entire thing.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Damn. So smart.

SPEAKER_04 49:51

It was ridiculous. Like I was like, you know, I was like, I have to do this. Like, I need them to understand like what I'm willing to do here to like stay, you know, and have this job. And so I brought it back in the next day. I gave it to my boss, put it down on the desk, like on the thumb drive. Back then, we still weren't doing like git and all that. Sorry, everybody's, you know, you're coding. You're like, why wasn't it in Git? You know.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

That's what I was gonna ask. Why wasn't in Git? Yeah. I don't even know what that means. You made me so smart. I'm so smart now.

SPEAKER_04 50:30

And so, oh my gosh. Yeah, but I put it down and I said, Look, I completed the project. I said, but also you're gonna do a background check and you're gonna learn that I just got out of prison. I just did five to seven years. I said, but this is how hard I'm willing to work for you. I have so much more to prove. I need this job. I will work my ass off for you if you let me stay. And it was the most awkward day of my life because they then went into a room and deliberated about whether or not I would stay at that company while I was sitting there working at my desk. Did you get that? No, because they were like in a closed room.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

Okay, okay. What was going through your mind at the time?

SPEAKER_04 51:11

Totally. Everything under the sun. Like everyone in there hates me. Everyone in there is impressed. Half of them hate me, half of them are impressed. My manager, hopefully, is sticking up for me and advocating for me. But then also, though, this one thing that was running through my mind the most is this is going to be a very awkward work environment from now on.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

And how long were you there for?

SPEAKER_04 51:32

I made it another like five to six months before I literally couldn't take it anymore. It's like once that was known, everybody knew. Like everyone wasn't a big company, you know. We're talking like a total of like 50, 60 employees. You know, I mean, I was eating lunch with these people every day. And everything changed. Like literally, everything changed. Um uh it just wasn't the same. And it felt weird. Um, because that had come out. Like people always ask me, like, how'd you get into coding? And I'm not normally one to just be like, well, you know, actually I was in prison. And like I took this course.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

The prison place, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:06

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Because you just don't know how people would take it. And so then I would have to kind of lie about like my background. So now here I am talking with all these people who I've lied to about my background. Oh, yeah, you know, and it's like, and now they're finding out I just got out of prison. And it's like then they're deliberating while I'm like here doing the work. But I was very appreciative. Don't get me wrong, because they did let me stay. They did, and I did great work, and it really gave me my first experience working in tech, working on a team, and like things that I foundationally would have never understood, no matter how many books or YouTube videos I was able to get access to, right? Like you can't replace experience like that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Precisely.

SPEAKER_04 52:46

And so I was very excited, but I just couldn't take it anymore. It got to the point where every day when I was going into work, it was just overwhelming almost. I needed somewhere where I could have a start that wasn't tied to like that moment, if that makes sense. Absolutely. Yeah, and then I started applying jobs in New York City, you know. I was like moving on to the big apple. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

There you go. Go to where the people are more understanding.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Did you say you got a a job at uh Pixify? Is that correct?

SPEAKER_04 53:15

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

And that's in New York.

SPEAKER_04 53:18

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so it was like uh like a classic e-commerce agency, right? So we're spinning up um actually I did like Harry's Razor's first website, Bomba Socks. I did their first website. Uh there's a few other ones as well. Yeah, yeah. I'm a Magento certified developer. So, you know, it's like an e-commerce platform. I know.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

You don't know what Magento is, but me and her do.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

I mean, yeah, you you guys can dish about that all day long. I'm way too smart now.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

I know, right? But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

And then how many years ago then did you join Salesforce? And how did how did you go about that?

SPEAKER_04 54:01

So one of the things in tech that I realized very quickly is I just and in general, I actually learned it in prison as well, is that I enjoy teaching others. I actually see it as the final step in learning something is teaching it to another person. Right. Nothing will make you understand something as well as trying to teach it to another human, if you care at all about the human and pedagogy, right? Like you know what I'm saying? Right. So um, so for me, that's always the last step, right? It's like absorbing, then doing, and then teaching is where I really feel I've uh I won't say not mastered, but really understand a subject to a point where I feel comfortable that no matter what angle or whatever, how the conversation is moving, like I feel so comfortable with the territory that I can choose the right map at like the right time for the right people, if that makes sense. Um and yeah, it's like why I like giving talks because I want to make sure that clarity is always at the center and focus. And so for me to be able to make something clear for somebody else, I first have to have that internal clarity about the subject. So, what happened was uh essentially I moved from being a software engineer to wanting to educate other software engineers. Uh, and so developer relations was a very natural fit for me because it's the whole point is to educate other developers on like how to use a specific tool language, whatever that it might be for like whatever company it is that you're working for. So I had had a career doing that through other companies, but then actually, a good friend of mine, Angie Jones, big shout out. She's like one of the most intelligent people, awesome uh people, enabling people that I've ever met in my entire life. So huge shout out to them. Uh, actually connected me. Literally, go Angie, like, cannot meet a better human being. And uh, she connected me to like somebody at Slack because this role was open and she was like, I think you'd be a good fit. It's like a leadership role in developer relations. Uh uh and yeah, so they connected me, and this was like four years ago, right? Now, absolutely. So this was like 2022, and uh interviewed. It was a good interview process. I ended up landing the job. It was interesting because even there, they did a background check, and because I'm in Virginia, they just like used like a company, right? But they gave them the full report, like my entire history. But even though in California, they only can look up to the last seven years.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Right.

SPEAKER_04 56:28

Oh, yeah, which is very interesting, right? So they were like, hmm, well, here's what we'll do. We'll just not really use anything from before the last seven years, and you don't have anything on your record for the last seven years. But it was a couple of weeks before they made this whole conclusion and figured everything out. So I was again working at Salesforce. Here I am again, and I don't even know if I'm gonna get to keep the job. Yeah, just imagine trying to on-bridge. Right. And you like, don't even know if you're gonna stay there, but you know, and then at the same time, you're trying to give it your all, you know? Because like if you do stay, you want to get off to a good start.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 57:04

Yeah, they were sweet about it. Like, don't get me wrong, like they everybody was as kind-hearted as they could be about it, right? Um but you still have to go through the machine, right? Machines aren't as friendly as people, so they sure aren't.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

Were you at Slack at the time when you wrote that medium piece, I'm an imposter?

SPEAKER_04 57:24

Yeah, yeah. No, I was actually at Major League Soccer. So this was like right before my transition into developer relations. Yeah, I was a tech lead on the UI team. It was a really cool job.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

I thought you were saying you were a soccer player. I was like, I missed I missed a beat. I missed it, but believe it.

SPEAKER_04 57:47

Yeah. No, I would believe it. Honestly, legitimately, uh, you could like if you dedicate it, you got the time.

SPEAKER_03 57:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:53

But uh no, yeah, I was working there. I would say, like, it was my last job as a software engineer before I went full-time into developer relations. And so I built their Fire TV app. I rebuilt their mobile app, like I moved them to a technology called GraphQL, which allowed them to like get rid of a bunch of other stuff that was like overly complex and getting in the way. It was very cool. It was a fun job. But that's where I wrote it. And you know why I wrote it? Because I met so many people, a much bigger company. And it um two things had happened. I had started to build up an actual presence in the community because I was writing about and talking about these technologies like GraphQL and React Native, which were emerging at the time, right? Uh uh, and then I also had enough job security at that point. I had worked like seven or eight different jobs in tech. I also understood tech a lot better and knew that I could find jobs where they wouldn't hold my background against me, right? Right. Uh, and so I just had realized, like, okay, I am now in a position of privilege where I don't any longer have to lie or hide my past. And I want to shed the weight and anxiety and stress of always having to lie about where I learned the code, how I got into tech, and all of that. And I would lie through a mission, but it's still a lie. Like to me, I didn't get to be authentic about it. And that's a lot to do. And so this was probably around 2017, 2018. So I'm like seven years out of prison, I'm four or five years into my career. And it's like I'm tired of lying every day. My whole point is personal growth, like being authentic, working on yourself, facing yourself. You know what I mean? But then every day it's like, well, how'd you learn to code? Oh, well, you know, like I took some courses and then mostly self-taught and like, you know, but I'm like leaving out a lot of it. It's who I am, and I shouldn't have to leave it out. Nobody should, you know.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 59:47

Um, yeah, but I felt like I did, and I finally felt like I didn't have to. And so that blog post was a lot of things pouring out of me, uh, carrying a lot of that weight around. And it was very freeing, and it just felt really good to be able to get that out there. And it did open up a bunch of doors. And I'd met so many people who are either formally incarcerated or have dealt with addiction or other issues, and like they they don't have the opportunity to like be as open about it. Um, so it's been really rewarding in the fact that again, I value success for myself by how successful those around me are. So it's like where I get a chance to help others, like I seek that out. And so it was terrifying as it can be for a middle-aged white man to like, you know, like have a hero story. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, so it's like acknowledging all that, but still terrifying, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

Yeah, absolutely. You're self-aware. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

You said in the US, you're never actually done doing time.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:47

That is so true. That is so true. Um, yeah, you you're like I have rights that still aren't restored to me that other citizens should have. Um, like I couldn't own a firearm. I don't really have a desire to per se. But what if I did want to? Like I have a family now. You know what I mean? Like uh that means they can't own a firearm. Like my wife can't own a firearm because it just can't be in the house. Right. So she can't even have it to protect herself, regardless of how I even feel about them. I just mean I can't teach my kids about firearms and firearm safety, right? Like, I actually can like we use something called burno, which is not like real, they're like less lethal, which I think are better anyway, because like it doesn't actually kill people. Um but the whole point is, yeah, but you can still like be familiar. And I think like as against them as I am, I wish they weren't here in the US. While they are, I think familiarity is something that is important. Yeah, um, but I digress. But it's things like that, it's my background uh preventing me from doing things. So I wanted to uh be an EMT. I've always been involved in medical, and I can't go and become a doctor. I just that's just not something that's available to me, but I could be an EMT. And I was, and so I started Virginia Beach, uh has volunteer EMS service. So I uh signed up, yeah, and I was going through the courses. They were like nominating me to be the class captain, but because of my background, background check came back, and they're like, sorry, because of your background, we have to cut you from the program because there's medication on the ambulance. I'm like, one, it's not even drug charges, my record. Two, it's 20 years ago. I have a family, I like have a full career in tech. Yeah. And that's what I said to them. I'm like, so I'm a senior director at Salesforce, right? But like I can't be an EMT. I was like, well, I mean, that's more on you. Like, you're the one who's losing somebody who's like here to just like literally volunteer their time, um, and uh, and they're gone, right? And so it's just a constant hindrance. Like I said, in Virginia, I couldn't even get an apartment sometimes if I wanted to. Like right now, like they can use that against me for an apartment. They could be like, oh, sorry, you have like this crime from 20 years ago. I don't know if they would, but the fact that it's a choice they can make is the thing. And it's not stable, it's up to them, right? So it could be hit or miss depending on where I go or how they feel. Um, and you know, those are just a few of the ways, but like it surfaces in many more than that, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:15

Oh, I bet.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:15

Um, yeah, just all kinds of things that you almost don't even think of. Buying a home was a nightmare. Buying a home is a nightmare. No, absolutely, absolutely, yeah. We actually, my wife and father-in-law like did the actual purchase, and then after the fact, we added me to the title and like added me to the loan, and then ended up after that waiting a while and removing my father-in-law, so then it was just me and my wife, but we had to do all of that workaround because I couldn't just do it myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

They set you up to fail, don't they? Yeah, the whole system.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:53

It's the prison industrial complex. I don't want to derail this into like a tirade on that, but legitimately, recidivism is extremely high in the US for a reason. And I will just say it because I don't care. Like profit should not be attached to rehabilitation. And I think when it is, the incentives move in the wrong direction.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:13

Yeah, gosh. Yeah, we could have a whole conversation on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:16

I'm saying, I'm like, I would like us to have a whole conversation on that because that gets me all what? Yeah. Gets me especially for people that are working so hard. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:25

And you see, and I wasn't the only one. That's what I'm saying. Like a lot of people were working hard. I do think that I was a bit of an anomaly in the amount of time and dedication that I put into it. Like nobody was taking every single course that was available to them. Like people were like, Kurt's a bit weird, you know what I mean? But like uh I was just a thirst for knowledge. Literally, that's what it became. No, absolutely. No, you nailed it. If it started really as a way to prepare myself, like in survival instincts, but it did just turn into a healthy thirst for knowledge, and it has not stopped, right? It just has continued to this day.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:06

What would you say to somebody who is where you were at the age of 20 doing the things that you were doing back then, knowing that your path isn't a template, what would you say that worked for you or without any advice?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:20

Yeah, this is such a tough um question, honestly. Like, because I I have to think a lot about the mindset that I was in. And I would think of the one thing that I would say would just be like stop self-imposing limitations. Stop. Why are you allowing other people to define what you can or cannot do? Um, I grew up a lot around people telling me you won't announce much, you're nothing but trouble, like you ain't gonna do anything, you're a bad kid. You know what I mean? Like stuff weighs on you, right? So I think I would just really uh push myself to be okay with that. And then also I lost a lot. Of like the part of childhood that allows you to just like play, explore, and just like be okay with things like hobbies or things that other people might not like be interested in or care about. Um uh like I'm resurfacing and living that I you know, people say like you know, a lot of growing up is actually just like living your childhood, right? Just being okay with play and like doing those sort of things. So I've been trying to spend a lot of time on stuff like that. Uh not trying to make up or like fill gaps in what I had as a childhood, but more just like be comfortable with the idea of like not everything is so serious, like throwing a little whimsy in my life. Like literally, like um, yes, because like life had forced me to be so serious, so young. And yeah, so I just don't want to do that. Yeah, yeah, it took us so long for me to process that, right? You know, they say like you have to grow up very fast, but then in a lot of ways you stop growing up emotionally, but you're forced to grow up under a survival mechanism. Uh, and that's like different than like emotional or intellectual growth. That's like, well, survival growth. You learn how to survive, and that's about it, right? But you're not really growing, you're surviving.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

Yeah. Right. That's true. So now you're also teaching yourself physics.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:20

How did how did that happen? And just I don't want, I don't, we don't need to get into it too much right now because we're gonna have you back on to teach us about physics, but how on earth did you like get there?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:32

Yeah. So all right, I had uh what you would call like, I guess, an information theoretic insight, right? So yeah, let me let me boil this down. Sure. Somebody asked a question and they were like, what do people build Slack apps for? And my job now, so I lead developer relations. And so my entire job is to help developers at other companies like Fortune 500s, very complex businesses, build the integrations that they use to improve logistics, communication, operations, right? So it's like I innately and very deeply, and also from my incarceration, understand the importance of information, the boundaries of how much information someone can take, and what it is required to actually maintain quality information over time, and the larger a group becomes. So I started to really break it down and I realized that it's three things it's extracting signal from noise, it's boundary stabilization, and it's overhead management. So, meaning like every app in Slack marketplace, like in some form or fashion, does one of those three things. And they're all related to information limits and our ability to process information. So then I started looking historically and saying, well, does this surface throughout sociological uh eras and civilization? And you can actually think of cave paintings as one of the first externalizations of information for the benefit of passing it on to a larger group of people than the constraints of having to say it verbally to each person and also extends the lifetime of it. We had become migratory. So you can always come back to this thing. That information is still there, it's in the cave, it's durable, it's protected, right? You can sit down in an entire group and educate them as once. You could look at it at caves as the first classrooms.

unknown 1:09:31

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:32

And so then I said, okay, so then what happens if we expand the size, right? And this started to happen when we were becoming a lot more coordinated. There's something called Dunbar's Law or Dunbar's Limit. And it's hard to coordinate more than 150 people. It's just very difficult. It's very difficult for one person to track more than 150 people, right? And so when you hit that limit, right, and now we think about like oratory transfer of information, it's generational. What happens if something wipes out everyone who knows? You actually lose that and you have to relearn it, right? So there's a high cost. So we started to externalize information onto more durable surfaces so that it could last longer and longer. We were essentially expanding the horizon of that information. Pyramids are the exact same thing at a larger scale. When you look at pyramids, the most important information of that society at that time, whether it be cultural, religious, agricultural, celestial, is all inside of that pyramid. In the most durable physical structure, they knew how to build at the time using the most durable materials that were available to them at that time. And the things that were in the deepest parts were always the most important information to that civilization at that time. They're just giant hard drives. Yeah. And so then I just like started to connect all this. That's it. It's the first like hard drive, right? Uh yeah, exactly. And so I just connected that and I said, okay, so everything that I'm talking about here is about the limits of information processing.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:09

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:09

This gets into thermodynamics, this gets into entropy and like information. And so then I said, okay, well, is it just people? Is this a socio thing, or is this like information theoretical and like all things are bound by um, you know, information processing? And then I discovered that there's actually Shannon, Claude Shannon, who worked at IBM and was a scientist and developed uh Shannon entropy, and that's like used in a ton of communications. And then you have Landauer, and Landauer's principle, and that to uh change or erase a bit of data costs like an actual amount of like thermodynamic energy to do. So I said, okay. So yes, the brain like literally has to pay a cost to process information. So every thought you have, like every time when you're reading, when you're doing anything, what we're doing right now, like our we're burning so many calories. Your brain uses 20% of your body's energy, and it takes up 2% of your body's mass.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:09

Fascinating. Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:13

Yeah. Yeah. So information, that's it. Information processing, and that's honestly is like the most expensive thing that you can do. And we have literally built ourselves up to optimize information processing. Uh, I don't want to get too into the woods, but like uh weeds, but like we've even built our bodies to optimize uh information input and then the ability to act on that information in our environment before our environment can enact on us.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:47

Does that make sense? Wow. That's why we've been able to survive so long. We've been we've become to the point where we can process information and simulate our environment faster than it can change. So we can affect it. Other biological things cannot, which is why they don't affect it. They can to a degree. This is why, like, crows use tools or uh, you know, beavers build dams, but they don't know like if a hurricane is coming, they just know the seasonal part, right? And that's like evolutionary ingrained in them at a genetic level, but we process that in real time. Like, does that make sense? And so it's that's it. And so that's what allows us to do it. So then I said, okay, so if we're bound by this, all biological things are bound by this, what else is bound by this? Uh, I gotta give a shout out to uh Richard Feynman, who is like one of my favorite theoretical, yeah, favorite theoretical physicists. If you ever want to get into physics, I highly recommend starting with his work. Um and uh, but um he had this idea, you know, about testing things at the extreme and like, you know, do they hold up under the most extreme circumstances? It's kind of easy to say yes in something like socio like technological or or civilizational scenarios because what I'm doing is I'm applying it to history. And it's very easy to apply a framework to history and make it line up, right? Like people do this all the time. So I needed something that wasn't tested yet. And so I went to black holes. And so then I taught myself all of the physics that I needed to get all the way to black hole thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, uh, you know, and really understand, like, and we're also looking at general relativity and the effects of that. And like I needed to understand all of this to then answer that question are black holes bound by the same information theoretic bounds that we are as people, and yes, they are.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

Oh, I just got goosebumps. This I learned more. I know. It just it kind of takes me back to the sentence that you had told yourself when you got your initial sentencing. I am not going to waste a single minute. And it seems that you have not wasted a single minute with your entire life since. And then you share it. Like, look at us open-mouthed teaching.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:09

I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:10

I share it.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:10

But again, it's like it's half selfish, but half not. But teaching is the ultimate form of learning. 100%. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So the more that I can talk about it and like the more with different audiences and at different levels. Like, I look at pedagogy almost like um, you have to have a lot of empathy for who's on the other side, right? Like you have to really understand how they take in information. And so this is something else I've thought about a lot because it's like I understand how I learn. So now I try to invest a ton of energy in understanding how other people learn. And I always try to like meet people where they're at, right? And even if I don't know necessarily your most optimal learning method, I always want to put things into a frame or through a lens or something that's somewhat relatable, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:56

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:57

Um, I don't like terms like dummy down because it doesn't make sense. I didn't dummy down anything for you. I just explained to you exactly what you know is happening and what my work did. But what I didn't do was like add unnecessary complexity to that explanation for this environment. Does that make sense? I could have started talking about like the maximum number of irreversible operations that a black hole can process during its wintertime, is blah, blah, blah. Yeah. It wouldn't have helped anybody, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:26

It's true. I remember when I was in college, I had to take organic chemistry and I took it once semester and I got a D in it, and I couldn't get a D in order for my degree. So I took it again that summer in summer school, different person, wound up getting like an A minus or B plus or something. And it was just because they explained it to me differently. I'm a very visual learner, like they sat something, something fucking clicked. And yeah. That's it. And that was it.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:53

That's it. And that's always my um my one push for advocacy to get people to create their own content, to teach others. One of the things I hear a lot of times, someone will have like an idea for a blog post or something. And they're like, you know, but I see a lot of articles about that. And my thing is always like, how many times I asked them this question, how many times have you wanted to know something that you didn't know? And you opened up one website, the very first thing you clicked on, and you read it and it just fully clicked for you. Right. And you're like, never, you know, never, right? Like, never. And then you go through any couple times until it's the right analogy or a visual method over audio, or like you see something done in a certain way and it relates to something you know, and then you get to click. And that's what I mean. It's like we all process information differently. We all have optimal learning methods for ourselves, like based on who we are, right? Optimal constraints for learning. I actually think like education should be very specific to the optimal constraints for you for learning. Like some people test really well under pressure, some people hate testing under pressure. Options should be available to you in either circumstance. Like sometimes, yeah, open-ended is bad for me. And sometimes it's great, you know? Um, but yeah, I feel like uh I know it's a bit of a derailment, but it's all related to information processing. So I guess it also.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:14

And that's kind of what this whole episode was about is just information processing.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:19

If we could just clone you, Kurt, so you could just your brain is magical.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:25

I I'm really curious about how your mind works. I feel inspired. I'm gonna go read some books. Literally, need some books.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:33

Yeah, yeah. Luckily, I have a drive after this. I'm in a drive to Blacksburg, so I'll have some time in my car. In the car is where I really process all my feelings, thoughts, and but absolutely wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:48

So good, dude. In that year over talking about like processing things, I would have literal panic attacks. Like I'd be in the shower and like something would hit me, and I'd be like, this can't be real life. Like, what is happening? Like, yeah, draw some connection, you know, and I'm like having a panic attack. I'm like, there's no way nobody knows this, and this works. Like, it's very interesting and very surreal because again, I'm completely outside the institutions. So I am constantly walking now. I'm much more confident, like we're, you know, like over a year in. I'm like literally published at this point. So I feel very familiar with the academic uh process. But when I wasn't familiar, when I was just trying to learn all this stuff, there were literal moments where I was like, yep, you fully lost it. Yep, this is it. You are gone. And the worst part is it all feels normal. So now you're in real trouble. Yeah, it was, and it wasn't until like I continuously had to like add more and more formalization and rigor and learn more and more and get deeper. And what I published is so far removed from where I started as well. Too. I started with like people and how they process informations, but the work I published is on black holes and how they process information. And so that is just like a very interesting right, like push. But I knew, especially as an outsider, there's another thing like credentialism versus credibility. I have no credentials and no credibility. In and theoretical physics is like the number one place where people love to show up without either and just say really wild shit.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:33

So it's just right. So it was very hard. Like I had to really learn like how to walk the line. And so my first paper, the actual thing that was impressive is two lines of algebra, just like two lines, right? But it is actually impactful. Nobody noticed this for over like 50-something years. Nobody asked this specific question about black holes, but it really even relates to information paradox, which is a question that uh Stephen Hawking and Beckenstein and others rose like uh uh, you know, like 70 years ago or something, right? Which is like when information falls in, is it trapped in there? Does it disappear from our universe? Or does it actually somehow get actually like expended back into the universe? So my theory is that it does through Hawking irradiation, and that it's actually a confusion between structural disillusion, which is just breaking something down to the very smallest uh like particles that you can have, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:33

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:33

Um, like quanta is what uh Hawking would have called it, and then it gets exported as like uh heat, like heat radiation, right? Hawking irradiation. But they confuse that with information destruction. And those are not the two, not the same thing. Still have 100% of the information from start to finish, but the actual structure is dissolved and the degrees of freedom are returned to phase space. So my hypothesis is that black holes are actually just breaking down structure and returning those particles back out into full degrees of freedom through phase space. And so that's what a black hole's actual job is. Not really nothing's being pulled or falling in, but in fact, that things that do actually end up like in its orbit eventually, and that's it. It just is like a shredder. So it has something called a ring down, and so we know that like as soon as something like hits that event horizon immediately starts like spinning like a black hole. And so um that like process of ring down is like what I think is like the greater, and so it's just structural dissolution. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And the entropy of that, uh, two things. So you get the immediate heat, which is like the picture we see, you know, like the ring around like a black hole, that heat, that's from that process of that. But then a lot of the the particles and entropy that exist, like entropy is second law of thermodynamics. You have absolutely have to increase entropy when you expend work or energy, and especially when you break down structure. And we all know that like over time, structure will succumb to entropy. I think we look at it backwards. I think we look at structure as the thing that's supposed to be, and entropy is the chaos. But I actually think it's like free degrees of freedom and open phase space that is the natural state, and structure is like what forms over time and then dissolutions, like throughout the span of time. And we just experience it on such a small scale because we only live for 80 years. But if you look at the buildup of something like a star and then structural dissolution of it over time, then it becomes like a little bit more apparent. And we do the same thing, right? Like from birth through uh life down through decay, like it's the same thing, it's structural buildup, and like we're one of the most structurally complex objects in the universe, as a matter of fact. Which is pretty I believe that it is. Yeah, we are believed that. We absolutely are. It takes literal, like layers and layers of something called like shelling, which is essentially like from particles all the way up to all of our cells and everything in us working together to this final shell so that we are a person. Because think about like what separates you from the environment around you. You know what I mean? But like if you ever look at a cell under a microscope, even within a cell, it's an entire world of complexity. Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. We're like one of the most complex objects in the universe, which is cool when you think about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:27

Interstellar matrix, inception, dance in my life.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:34

I'm sorry, but this is what happens in my brain. So you ask like how I think I'm so grateful for the it's just incredible.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:44

It's real. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:45

It is real life. If you've proven anything today or shown me anything, it's that anything in life is possible that you have taken. You started here and look where you're at. You're schooling us in physics that you're gonna have to come back and really do it. I mean, seriously, Kurt. You're gonna have to dumb it down a little bit more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:05

It's like flowers for Algernon right now. Like we just got smart and now we're going back into our worlds. We're gonna get dumb again, Emily. Yeah. We've got to get her back.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:12

Before we've one final question for you before we let you take on the rest of your day.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:18

So first thing that comes to your mind, Kurt, what's the kindest thing that anyone's done for you? It doesn't have to be the biggest, kindest thing. It could be something little, but whatever pops into your head.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:28

There, I dang, the kindest thing that anybody's ever done for me. I without a doubt, it's my wife. Um and I would say absolutely. And I think the kindest thing that she's ever done for me is also one of the hardest things for herself. Is that actually when I was so I deal with a ton of trauma already? Like I'm already working on like it being able to express my emotions and like dealing with PTSD and all this stuff. So then I went through this kind of mad scientist phase. So here I am just rattling off all this stuff. It sounds super fun, it's really cool. It was a living nightmare for her and for me. Like I said at times, I literally thought I was going crazy. Like I have a full-time job. Like, I had to do all of this in my nights and weekends. And I had to do it because I couldn't not do it. Because as soon as I had like drew those connections, like it's just how I saw the world. And when you see the world one way and you're the only one that sees it that way, and you can't answer the question of whether or not that is how the world works, that is the slippery slope to like woo-hoo, you know. Yeah, and so, but there were times, like I said, I'd be like a walk out of the shower and have a panic attack on the floor. It must be so difficult. So the way she said it, which I think is very poignant, is that she not only had to live with it, she had to live through it, right? So she's trying to be there and support me while she's also dealing with it, you know, and so it's cool. I get to come out the other side and all that. And then, and then, and then she threw me a party to celebrate it, and she got me this necklace, which is a black hole. So it's a black hole, and on the back it has my clothes form equation that uh in my first paper that was published.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:14

What is her name?

SPEAKER_04 1:27:16

Donna, and she's the Donna freaking amazing. She's the best, literally phenomenal. Like, you have no idea. Yeah, yeah, that is the kindest thing. Um, is it so kind because like I know it must have been so difficult for her. The gesture was like showing up every day, even though I was a train wreck. You know what I mean? Um, yeah, it's I gotta say it and even laugh about it a little bit now, but like, dang, it wasn't really laughable then. You know what I mean? Of course, yeah. Um, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, I'll I'll be forever, forever grateful for that. Like, that's the ultimate kindness. She's still here. So yeah, Donna. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:02

Thank you, Donna. Thank you, Kurt. Thank you, Courtney. Oh my gosh. Kurt, yeah. Honestly, thank you so much for taking the time and talking with us today. I I really am seriously about you coming back on though. I could I couldn't listen to you all day long talk about everything in your life. Uh, you are just a wealth of information, and it's uh I think that we can learn so much from person too.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:27

You are absolutely shows and that's how we respond. Like, you know, we're passionate people. So when you get around, I just want to hear about it. I want to know it all. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:28:36

That's it. My favorite phrase, like I always tell everybody, is fascinating, tell me more. Like I, you know, like like it doesn't matter. Like if you are excited about it, like I don't need to know it, I don't know anything. Just honestly, hit me with that excitement. You know what I mean? Just like me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:53

Throw it at me. Well, to all of our viewers and listeners out there, if you have any questions for Kurt, we can get in touch with him. You can email us at that wasn't theplanpod at gmail.com or find us on our other sites that we're on. But Kurt, again, thank you. Courtney, thank you. And everyone, thanks for tuning in. Um until next time. Thanks, Kurt. Let's go. Let's go. Thank you so much for having me. This was amazing. All right, lovely day. Bye, you guys. Bye.