SPEAKER_03 0:04

That wasn't the plan. You ready, Courtney? Courtney? I've ready. Good gun. All right. Courtney, it's so good to see your face. Welcome to the first.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Welcome. Welcome, Emily. Thank you. Here I am.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Oh, I missed you last week. I know. I missed being with you guys. You're here today. And all of our listeners, thank you for tuning in to That Wasn't the Plan. Courtney's back in action. Yay. There will be much rejoicing. Yes. Let the dreams flow. Let them flow. So without any further ado, I kind of just want to get to our guest today. Today we have Lindsay Brockman with us. Lindsay is a licensed veterinary nurse and an LVT, 15 years across the ER, end of life, and community medicine. She is also a certified pet loss grief specialist, and she runs a practice called Everkin Pet Loss Support out of Richmond, Virginia, where she offers one-on-one grief sessions, group workshops, and this is the part that I love grief literacy training for veterinary teams, because sometimes the people on the other side of the exam table need support too. Lindsay's, yeah. Lindsay's whole framework is built around something called disenfranchised grief, which is a fancy term for a simple yet brutal idea. The grief the world doesn't quite know how to honor. The grief that gets the it was just a pet comment, or you'll get another one. I'm already crying. I'm already crying. Oh my lord.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

You better stand alone. You better stand alone. Nail that intro, too. That's such a mouthful. Anytime someone's like, what do you do? And I'm like, all right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah, it's like the silence where a casserole should be. And her whole practice is about rejecting that. So um she brings her own grief to this conversation, which we can touch on, Lindsay, if you're up for that. Um know how not to touch on it. So Okay. Her son Jack was still born at 38 weeks, and Lindsay has said the two losses share some of the same weight. Her tagline is a Ram Das quote, we are all just walking each other home, which tells our listeners and Courtney and myself everything we need to know about who she is. So, Lindsay, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. That was a nice interview. Well, the work you do just sounds incredible. Um, I when I reached out to you to find out if you'd be interested in coming on the podcast, I think it was the next morning and I walked out into my front yard and my baby cat, it was around 5 45 in the morning, and I let her out so she can sniff and do her thing. But something seemed odd. And I walked out to the sidewalk and there was a coyote right there, and it scared the shit out of me. You know, ran into the yard looking for my cat. You immediately popped into my mind, and I was like, I need to talk to Lindsay because had anything happened to her. She's she really is my life. I don't consider myself a crazy cat mom. My world revolves around this little thing. We have seen each other through so much. She was, you know, there for me during COVID, during cancer. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

So I don't subscribe to the term crazy cat mom if it makes you feel better at home. I don't believe in that. Um, and the world is small. My mother-in-law, who passed away a couple of years ago, um, she she did have she had cancer, but when she was going through chemo, she got uh her cat, little kitty, who she called her chemo cat, kind of helped her get through a lot of years too. So yeah, I mean, there's so much more than just yeah. Oh my gosh, yes.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Uh so take us back, like 15 years in vet medicine, ER community work, end of life. Um, what was the moment or the case that made you realize that you needed to do the work that you're doing now?

SPEAKER_00 4:03

I don't know that there was one single case, right? So I started in emergency medicine um when I was when I got licensed. And I know that, you know, that we we say there's general practice, like so just the vet that you you take your cat to for, you know, wellness, sick, whatever. And then there's urgent care practices, there's ER, there's all these different things now. Um, but I started in ER and kind of like just being thrown to the fire and it's a sink or swim. Um and seeing sort of the the trauma that comes in and how people are expected to, and it's it's no fault of anybody, right? Because the in the ER that I was in was wonderful people, but often short staffed, um, super busy, like just under-resourced, that kind of thing. And so we're under-resourced, and then the clients are coming in, they're already at a level 10, understandably. And so people are just sort of missing each other when they communicate and when you're running around and and doing CPR on more than one thing at a time. Like it gets to be so busy. Do you have space for grief in that moment? Not really. So there's just so much that's lacking. Um, and everyone's doing the best they can. So I saw it there first, I think. I mean, I remember a million there, there are a lot of pets that I still think about. Um, you know, ones who had guardians present with them, ones who didn't. Um, there's a lot of grief on the pet team end as well, for those of us that are working right in VetMed. We compartmentalize it, but there's a lot of grief there. A lot of cumulative grief. And then I think I've worked a bunch of different places. When I ended up in nonprofit um community, VetMed was where I had a little bit more time, not much, but a little bit more time to slow down and really notice that gap that that exists, where even though we're doing the best we can, oftentimes owners are just there's a lack of grief literacy, I guess is the best, best way to see it.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

You've written that you've watched uh vet professionals get thrown into the emotional trenches without any training. What did that look like from the inside? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

That looks like from the first when I started. So I was in my 20s when I started in ER, for example. It wouldn't be atypical for me to be working as a technician on an overnight, and I would be with the doctor and no one else. So there were times where we would have pets that were hospitalized that needed ongoing care because they were hospitalized. They had treatment sheets we were working on with them. Then we would have clients come in with their pets, you know, for maybe they it's a wound and we can do it outpatient, um, or they're coming in for a euthanasia, or they're coming in and it ends up being a surgery when we call someone in to help, but it would just be us. And so I remember thinking like, this is crazy. And I would be essentially the technician or the nurse and the assistant and working the front desk. And so when someone would come in, particularly for a euthanasia, which is something that you should uh have, you know, dedicated time to be able to walk someone through and sit in that with them for them to sort of process it. And um and I remember just just thinking one, I'm pretty good at this. Um and it's very rewarding to to be the person that's able to help, but then also we can do this so much better. Um so yeah, that's I mean, being thrown to the fire, I think that's that's one example for sure.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Yeah. So that kind of prompted you to, were you thinking that you could maybe potentially start this conversation inside a clinic? Or did you think that you could build everkin your practice now that can help, you know, people across the country, across the world with this grief? And it was just probably a better idea for you to do that than stay within one clinic and sort of the latter.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

So because I just think as much as I wish that, and and people who work in veterinary medicine, you know, overwhelmingly are there, they're they're not they're not there because they're making a ton of money. Like they're they're there because they genuinely love what they do and they want to help people and they want to help pets. And so you already have this group of people who are incredibly empathetic, very compassionate, and then they're often overworked, understaffed, all of that. So I don't have an unrealistic expect. I think it'd be an unrealistic expectation that you'd really be able to get to a place, at least as veterinary medicine exists and is structured right now, where teens have the space and the time to walk with people through grief in the way that we really want them to, in the way that they want to as well. Um, and so I think oftentimes, you know, people one of two things is happening. Like they're they're being told, often compassionately, as best they can in the moment, by the veterinarian, okay, it looks like, you know, we're we're approaching end of life and here are your options. And they're overwhelmed and confused and don't know how to navigate that. And or after the euthanasia or after the death of a pet, whether it's traumatic or whatever else, they're sort of leaving, like, what the hell do I do now? Where do I go? And oftentimes, you know, I'm in therapy. I love therapy for everybody, right? Um, personally is my like yes, ma'am. Therapy for all. Therapy for all. Um, but but a lot of times I think there's a gap there too, unless someone's like specializing in pets specifically. Like there's just there's just a gap that exists. And so I hear from people a lot, like I still feel like it was minimized or wasn't really understood, or we kind of glossed over it, or whatever. And so I thought I've been doing this organically and in a um not unprofessional capacity, but like just as part of my job of what I've been doing for so long, I should really look into could this in itself supporting these pet guardians during this time of grief like be its own thing? And I thought, why not? And so I looked into it, and it turns out it can. If you are a licensed veterinary technician, this is a specialty you can go into, um as a branch off of your license. And so I was like, well, let's do that, please. And so then, you know, here we are. And I just thought, well, you know, maybe if if nobody's interested in it, like worse it can do is fail. I don't know, but it, but it hasn't. So there is, there is a great need for it for the one-on-one support sessions in particular.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

And it it certainly shouldn't. And I um I have I'm in AA, and a lot of times people come in and are sharing when they lose a pet. And every single one of us is like, we take a knee. Like I am more there for people when they lose a pet than my friends who have lost their children, who have lost. Um, I always say it's a it's a deeper, it's a more private pain. Um it's just so different. Uh I lost my dog, Rooster, um, in 2020. What a jerk. Died in the pandemic, scumbag. Um, and I lost her in a traumatic way because she was sick. We I took her in. She had congenitive heart failure. They, I was like, is this, do we need to have the end of life talk? And they're like, no, no, no, not yet, not yet. We're gonna keep her overnight, put her in an oxygen tank uh thing. And then they called me at three in the morning and said, We're losing her. Do you want us to resuscitate her? And I said, No, I'm on my way. And it gives me two smokes. Yeah, I was driving at two in the morning, just sobbing and just calling to her, saying, I'm coming. And then I got there, and of course, they hadn't unlocked the doors, so I'm outside, like, you know, it was very, very theatrical. Um, and I did not get to see her before she died, but I got to hold her after, and they um and they were there was only like two technicians and they were very young, God bless them. And you know, I'm holding my dead dog, which is extremely hard. And then I spent my time with her, and then I was done, and I couldn't find anybody to take her.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

So I'm walking around this animal hospital, like with my dead dog. And I'm like, hello.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

I love her, but yeah, that happens. So I can't tell you how many times, too, and you're like, they were so young, like, yeah, that was me on those ER overnights because they're hard when you're young and you're new. I mean, not exclusively, but a lot of times that's that's who's doing those overnights. Yeah, that's that's tough. And there is, and that's what I mean when I talk about grief literacy for for teams as well, is I think certain personality types are are better at it, um, for sure. And that's something that's not always learned. And then also what, you know, with experience, it can come too, but but yeah, there's still a lot of like uncomfortability around grieving pet guardians, which it's such a huge part of vet med. And so, you know, um, there are just everybody, I think we all can do better, and and there's a lot to learn. Um you said, and I didn't know how soon we'd segue into it, but you said something about pets and and children, like losing a pet and losing a child. And sorry, I just jumped right in, didn't I? No, no, no, it won't be sorry. In um, so so January 21st, um, Jack, my our son Jack was born, and it was a perfect pregnancy and for him and for me, and um the wonderful, you know, medical team and everything. And for reasons that we probably won't ever know, he was still born. Um, and so that was the worst thing I've ever been through, and I hope it's the worst thing I ever go through. And I remember thinking, like, I mean, it took weeks to even be able to function and come out of that in any semblance of like a human being. But I I, you know, I remember telling my husband, like, I've worked so hard to put this uh thing together with Everkin. And like, I I don't know if I can do it. What if I can't do it? Because if I feel like this forever, how could I help somebody else and like extend some part of me to help someone else who's grieving, you know? Um and it it took a while, I mean, it's only it's been less than four months, but but it it and it is something that like any kind of grief, but like I will carry with me for the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

I am a a different person, and certainly part of me died with um did your work at Ever Can Your Pet Grief prepare you for the loss of your son Jack? Or did that teach you something new about your own work?

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Both. I think that's such a yeah, that's such a good question. I remember being really angry. Um, I mean, sometimes I'm still really angry, but I remember being really angry that at just sort of like the cruel joke uh was what it felt like at the time of like coming home and you know, his nursery nursery remains untouched, but like coming home and seeing all the books on my bookshelf about grief and and you know, um from school and also just because I had an interest in things like that and just being like what the fuck, you know, like and and it just the surreality of it all it's an it's an ever evolving thing. But what I have come to realize as I sort of eased back into things, and my books are open on June first. Um so you can book, but they're back open on June 1st. What I've sort of uh come to realize is like I I don't I don't like a grief competition, no one wins. Um nobody's grief is the same. Even if you you lose uh, you know, uh someone else's stillbirth grief is not the same as mine. Like it's just all and I and I had this moment where I thought, okay, I can I can do this because we came, we were home, and my husband said, I mean, both of us always are, you know, I want him back. But he said, I remember him saying, like, I just wish we could at least have Oliver. And Oliver was our last dog before Curly Sue that we had um put to sleep maybe two years ago now, which is crazy. But he was such a good boy, and he was like just such a good cuddle bug. And and I thought, like, yeah, there's something really important there. Um because I do too. Like I would do just about anything to get have my baby here. And but if I couldn't, like I would at least bargain with the universe, right? Like, could I just have Oliver then? And I think that says something to how deeply connected we are to our companion animals. That like in the worst moments of my life, I thought I'd give anything to have my son, but if I can't have him, just give me my fucking dog back. You know? And that would help. I mean, and and I think our connections to our companion animals go so much deeper than people understand. They're often our first sense of safety and unconditional love and no judgment and um and that bond and that love, you know, it stays, which is why the group stays.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

But um so kind of on that note, walk us through um what disenfranchised grief actually means for somebody hearing the term possibly for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yeah, I think again, in the universe's uh cruel way of just sort of playing around. Like all there's so many parallels between my personal life right now and and yeah, the work. Disenfranchised grief, so all it is is just a type of grief or loss that's not not often recognized by society as a whole. So, as we all know, we have a whole lot of work to do, I think, uh, in our world, in our culture in particular, for when it comes to debt and dying and how to have a good death and how to grieve and how to support people who are grieving and how not to say things that you know make people want to throat punch you when they're in the midst of many of which I've heard, you know, heard as a late. Um so that's disenfranchised grief. And and I think pet loss grief is one of the biggest types of disenfranchised grief for sure, as is uh, you know, stillbirth and infant loss. So uh, you know, there's all these weird uh parallels. And and you'd asked to like has this informed a new perspective I don't know how you worded it, but has this informed a new perspective for you on the work you do and it it it has like I would give anything to not have uh had this perspective. Um and I don't subscribe to everything happens for a reason. I don't believe that. Um, but I do uh you know, I can find some purpose in it, and that I think this is the depth depth of grief that allows me to connect with people in a different way. If I can look at somebody and say, and I have, you know, my baby died. I picked a headstone for my baby and it's fucking terrible. It's terrible. Um and uh your grief over your pet is valid. So if I can tell you that, right, then I feel like, and I don't know if I'm articulating it well, but I then I feel like nobody gets to take that from you, and nobody gets to take it from you anyway. But but you know, often you'll hear, oh, well, it's let's just a pet. But I'm telling you I've experienced one of the most terrible types of loss I think can. And um, and so if I can say, yeah, but your your grief is valid and like how you feel is valid, then maybe people will believe it.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Um that's so powerful. Wow. Yeah, I think you articulated that beautifully. Well, well said. So well said. Wow. You also said something on your blog. Um, there is no time limit on grief because there's no time limit on love.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Right. And I do recognize too, um, that like a lot of times when I'm talking about grief, and I'll I'll say things about, you know, the that bond remains and that love remains. I do also recognize outside, mostly outside of pet loss, there are types of grief that don't always involve that kind of love. You know, you grieve, complicated relationships and things like that. When it comes to pet loss, um yeah, I mean, I think that's it, that's the common thread is that love is a really big love. They're so they're so present with us, but in every moment of the day. I mean, they get they're so ingratiated into our routines and our pets regulate our nervous systems. Oh, yeah. And so it's like you feel that loss in such a visceral way. Um, and it does feel very empty. And so yeah, I I don't even remember what I don't even remember why when I was where I was going. I'm like Michael Scott. You know when Michael Scott on the office sometimes I start a sentence and I hope I find find it along the way. I do that at least five times a day.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

That's me. Well I I mean, and grief does that to you too. Oh, timeline. That's what you that's what you said. Um, yeah, no, there's no there's no timeline. And so sometimes you will hear, and I see it play out too, because I have a a work account um for Everkin. And so I will see people who are well-meaning. We have to move on or just get another pet. And it's like um that's harmful. You know, their intent isn't to be harmful, but the impact is the same. Like, like that's that's harmful. Please don't say that to someone who's screaming a pet. Um, you have to move on. We don't move on. I don't move on from the pets that I've lost. I don't Don't move on from my baby. Um, we move forward, we move with, we try to find ways to take them, carry them with us, and continue to honor them. And um, there are ways that we can continue to connect with the ones that we love after they're gone. It's not the same, and that's painful. There are ways we can stay connected to them. Um, so yeah, there's no timeline. It's not, it's not like, okay, great, we've hit uh X amount of time and you are good to go. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

Right. Like it should be over and done with. It's time for you to re-engage and be back to who you were. And that's not possible. No, you're you're a different person. Um, if somebody's listening right now and they've just lost something, uh, a pet, a person, a pregnancy, a future, and the people around them are saying the wrong things or not saying anything at all, what would you want them to know?

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Um, that's such a good question. I, and this is something that, and this is another one of those things too, where it's like, I wish I didn't have this perspective. But um, but I feel in doing something with it to help other people, maybe it's a way to honor Jack as well. I try really hard to have grace for people when they say certain things. You know, I there are some older people in in my life um who I think were I I try to remember we're raised in a very different time and we're taught to shove things deep down, and that makes me so sad. Um I so I try really hard to give people grace. I try for me personally, intent is helpful. So if it's someone I know and I know they're just like, I just don't know what to say. But the best thing you can say to someone is, I just don't know what to say, but I'm that this sucks and I'm and I'm here and I'm not leaving. Um so I think when you hear those comments, right? Like I when you hear everything happens for a reason. God has a plan, we just don't understand it, right? Some of those things. Um I don't know that there's a wrong way to respond, right? And so if you are grieving and you in that moment feel like you have the capacity to do the emotional labor, because it is emotional labor to explain to someone why that's upsetting, do that. But we frankly don't always have the capacity for that when we're grieving. And so it's also perfectly okay and don't beat yourself up over it if you're just like okay, and and that's all you can do. Um I I think too, um, it's more painful for me and for a lot of people when people just ghost rather than say the wrong thing. I would rather you say the wrong thing than just not show up. And grievers don't often have, again, the capacity to say, hey, you didn't show up and it hurt me. They just, you know, sort of disengage. Um and so I think maybe the best advice is just to know that, particularly in pet loss grief, like when someone says to you, it's just a pet, that to remember that that's a reflection of them and not a reflection of you and your love with your pet, your bond with your pet, and how sad for them that they can't understand that kind of bond that then necessitates that kind of grief, that they cannot understand that. They've never experienced it, or maybe they're not capable of experiencing it. And that's really fucking sad. That's really sad for so heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

So sad because I know Courtney and I have both had such huge, amazing, incredible, beautiful bonds with our pets before. And I mean, still to this day, and it's it yeah, it does make me sad when somebody's never had that with an animal. It's wild.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

I can't understand it.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

I can't either.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

I can't fathom it because maybe we're all this way, but you know, if I'm at a gathering or whatever, like I'm in the corner with the dog or the cat, whatever. Right. Um, and I've always been that way. So I I to me that's hard to understand. Um but it is when people say things like that, or if they say, you know, well, just go get another one. Um it's like, well, so that's akin to someone saying to me, well, just have another baby. Well, it's a whole ass human being, right? And this this was a whole a whole animal companion all its own. You know, it's it it's not there is no replacement. We can move forward, we can decide to try again, whether, you know, we can decide to adopt another uh pet when they like curly Sue, when they find us or when we feel called to, you know, when that feels right or not. And all of that is valid. Um, but it's not a band-aid to fix grief. There is no fixing grief. We just learn to carry it. But she showed up, Curly Sue. I woke her up. She's she's so mad.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Courtney, where's your little one? Yeah. She is in the bathroom. I mean, she is, I'm in a closet, so which is for the best because she's wild and she's a full-blown puppy right now, and I love her so much.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

She's pretty, she just wants to be held. Um, but the years. The crazy thing is, I um I don't really know what I don't know what I just saw her on um Instagram, I think Richmond Animal League. Big shout out, posted her, and I was like, 15, nobody's gonna, you know, that nobody's gonna come get this dog. And she looks so sad. Um, I didn't realize she was this small either. And so when I went in and I just thought, I don't know, something, I mean, you know, if you're a pet person, you just know. I just thought, I just gotta go see her. And so um we went in and my friend was working. I didn't know she was gonna be working that day, but she was like walking out as I was walking in, and she said, I know who you're here to see because we worked at the Richmond CCA together, and she's like, I know you like those crunchy old dogs.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Um you are correct.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

You are correct. So um, yeah, and I just when we went to see her, she was hiding under her blanket in the kennel, and she was like, and I was like, I can't what am I just gonna leave her here? You know, so unless she tries to bite my face off, it was pretty much done. Yeah, and what's crazy is when the hospital sent me home with um the hospital was wonderful. Um, it was a you know the worst thing ever, but they were very kind and uh I would say pretty grief literate, to be honest with you. Um they yeah, thankfully, because that's not always the case from a lot of the year. Oh, geez. But they sent me home. There's a volunteer organization called Weighted Angels in our area. Um, I think they might be in Roanoke too, I don't know, but they're in like Richmond and the Tri-Cities, and they make these uh weighted stuffed animals that weigh roughly the same as your baby, so you don't leave the hospital without holding something. And um, you know, because handing your birthing your child, I mean it birthed him like any other uh delivery. And so, but knowing he was dead. And so and then holding him and then having eventually to give your baby back is there armed words for that. So um I I didn't put that thing down for weeks, you know. I held on to that and it it's a wonderful idea. I don't know who came up with that, uh what that is to say. When we went in and I saw her, and I'm again not one of these people that's like everything happens for a reason. I tend to think uh I can I find meaning in certain things and you know, but um I was like, oh my god, she's so small when she came in. I wasn't expecting her to be so small from her picture, and she weighs almost exactly what Jack weighed. And so bringing her home and all she wants to do is be held. Um and so it was like it's not you know and I think a lot of people in grief can relate to this. You you're pissed at the universe, right? Because it's like on the one hand, it's like this seems really fortuitous that I'm, you know, all of a sudden felt compelled to come see this dog and all she wants to do is be held like a baby, and she's grieving because her owner died, and so now I have her on my chest instead of the weighted angel. And um it's a comfort. But then at the same time, you're like, well, if you can do all that for me, universe, maybe you could have, you know, yeah, could have just kept my baby alive. Like it's so there's but that's grief, is that we hold so many things at one time, you know. Oh yeah. Unbelievable. And it's called weighted angels. The angels, weighted angels. And we found out that um there was almost a thousand dollars donated from our friends and family in Jack's name, which is huge for them because they really have a volunteer run, so that lets them make more of these weighted angels. Um in all of them. It's a real it's really important, yeah, to not leave you leave with a box. Um you give birth and you leave with a box. Um and so to at least have something, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:16

Alan, you and Curly Sue can be there for one another during both of your grief.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Did Curly Sue come with the name Curly Sue? She did, yeah, because her hair is gonna be curly when it grows back. Um some sort of poodle thing. And so yeah, yeah, and I loved that movie when I was little.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Me too. This is adorable.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Yeah, love it. So I was like, we're gonna keep, we're gonna keep the yeah. My daughter calls her Susan because she thinks it's funny, but uh short.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Where's Susan? I love that. Yeah. I wanted to name our puppy Patricia, but nobody was on board with it.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

So I'll go with my cat, our last cat who was the best cat ever. He was a tuxedo. His name was Alan. Um he came from the Richmond SPCA, and uh he and to their credit, um, they named him, which isn't surprising. That's where I worked also, but it isn't surprising um when you know when you know them because you're like the they do have fun with the names, like it tracks, but yeah, his name was Alan.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

Courtney said it on one of our last episodes, and I've I've been on board with this for years, loving the older human names for animals, like Alan, Patricia, Susan, Stephen, Gary, Susan. Yeah. One named I named him Frank.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Um love, love Frank. Yeah. It's just it's but it's funny because the kids that that I uh I have stepkids and they're adults, they um they don't find that funny. Oh my god. Oh, that happened.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

It was bound to happen at some point. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Uh I So this is part of why I'm Meltdown City. I have an implant and the tooth is full of moms. I would I have an appointment next week, and um, I literally just spit it. I that's not happened. That happened for you, I think, Lindsay. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

So so my this is not has nothing to do with pet loss grief. My grandpa, okay, who is is past now, but like my grandpa was he had two um fake eye teeth. And he was a teacher. And at one, uh my dad has the photo, but like in one of the school photos that he took, he could click like click it up and down, right? Like those two. So, and he would just do shit like this all the time. But in the photo in the yearbook, he clicked it so that not only are they gone, but it's like they look like they're in in the middle of falling out. I love him.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

I love him. Uh I love him. Um, I don't have a quick fix for this, so um, that's okay, Court.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

I mean, we should just I'm I think I think this. Hey guys, it's a good angle.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

I have been wanting to see this, so I'm I feel very blessed. Curly Sue only has two teeth.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Curly Sue! I'll get it, girl. Oh, girl. Look at her eyebrows. Oh, she's perfect in every way. She's such a holy girl. She's so good. Look at her little, and it looks like you I love that you crimped her ears to make them look so perfect. I love this. Yeah, duh.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

I need to just get a gold boost. Come for you. People will come for me. They'll be like, it you should not crimp a dog's ear. Not crimp her ears.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

Oh, look, this is my one. Look at me.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Her name is getting up from a nap.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Her name is I call I've called her Sakawea, and I don't actually I it's not jasmine. Jasmine was a different cat.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

Yep. This is Lady Chunk.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Lady Chunk. I knew that.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

Lady Chunk. She weighs a little over 20 pounds. Um she came to me when I adopted her. I I got her when she was a year old, and she then weighed 18 pounds. And this was right before this was the Thanksgiving going into the lockdown, the pandemic. Awesome. So once kind of the pandemic hit a few months later, we were just shut in together, and both of us, you know, really like to eat. So we just ate mate for a couple of years, and then I got cancer. And it was like we were just stuck together in this house for a good four plus years, not being able to go or do anything. And we both just kind of blossomed and she gained a few more pendings.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Yeah, it's just trauma bonding.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, you guys. My tooth is falling out, my laptop's dying. I just, I swear, in some other world, I'm on top of my shit. It does not appear that that is the case today or yesterday or maybe even tomorrow, but that's okay. We're all doing our best.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

And this is what the best looks like. Yeah, well, some days. I mean, you know, I was like, I had to wait. That's this is a like back to that. I was like, I'm I have to make sure that if I'm going back to do this work, that I can be fully present, right? Because like that's what you deserve in grief support. And that's what I was scared. Like, am I gonna be able to do that? Um but it's actually it's it's what I realized is that it's I mean it's so rewarding that it is a little bit healing to to to do, you know, to to continue to do the work. So um and allows me to to kind of be present in a different way and act in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

I'm dying to ask you, Lindsay. Uh so my sister's name is Lindsay. Um yeah, and uh and she spells it the right way, just like you do. Um and uh but she is a counselor and she has talked to me before about compassion fatigue. What are your thoughts on compassion fatigue?

SPEAKER_00 37:12

How much with how much time you have to do. What is compassion fatigue? So compassion fatigue is is um is a huge issue in veterinary medicine, for one thing. Um a huge, huge, huge issue. So there are atypically high suicide rates in veterinary medicine. And there's an organization called Not One More Vet that works really hard to spread awareness about that and and help with that. Um, but a lot of it, and there it's multi-layer. I mean, there are many reasons for that. Um, but one of them, compassion fatigue is a huge issue. And so essentially, sometimes I think people confuse it with burnout. Um compassion fatigue is different. It's it's truly where, you know, I think to work in vetmed, you have to be able to compartmentalize certain things. So you're going into one exam room and it's an elderly man and he's putting down his dog and his wife died a couple months ago, and he says, I don't have any reason to live anymore. And we're like, do we have to call a welfare check? How can we help this person? Like, is that harmful or helpful? What do we do? Um, and then you go immediately and it's like puppy vaccines in the next room. It's the cutest dog you've ever seen. And then there's a surgery. I mean, it's just, and so you you extend so much of yourself in veterinary medicine, and and oftentimes there are appointments and drop-offs and surgeries at the same time. There's all of these different things happening. And then every every patient has a guardian attached, at least one. And so, you know, I there I can think of times where I think of a million times, when they're grieving, sometimes they're angry, sometimes they're sad, sometimes they they check out, you know. Um, but I can think of so many times, like, for example, I we had a a Yorkie come in one time that um was in heart failure, actually. And um the guardian had no idea, um, which is very easy that that happens, right? They didn't, they didn't have any idea until it was pretty bad. And then she's coughing. And why is she coughing so much? And so I remember the the the woman just absolutely, you know, uh was devastated and lost it and then told me, um, well, you're gonna have to tell my son because I can't tell him. And I was like, what? And there was a a little boy that was there with her. And so in the moment, it's like, well well, so and it's you know, one appointment of what, 60? Um this wasn't even an ER, but it and it's like, well, I I either I either help or she's in such a state that if if she delivers it, it's probably gonna be more traumatic. So I help. But those are the kind of things that just happen over and over and over and over. And so certainly if you then are also understaffed, um if you're under resourced, if you are working in ER and you've got 40 patients that are hospitalized and there's only three of you there, I mean, um, it compounds with burnout. And yeah, you you only have so many spoons, right? You only have so much of yourself to give. So, and a lot of the times it's like the you the pizza parties don't really don't really do so much for yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

No, they don't ever actually.

unknown 40:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

But it's really powerful that that I have a uh a couple of friends that are vets and they are veterinarians. Um and they um the not one more has been a very big because it's it's just unbelievable. I wish I had the smarts to be a vet. I just never had the math brain or any of that. And so I I just try to be of service to uh people that have lost their animals and also people that uh and then animals themselves. Like I've been to um best friends in Utah where they took uh the Michael Vick dogs, and I I mean, and I would love to say it was my idea, but I have two friends that are they've got PhDs, they're smart as heck, and they were like, would you like to come along? And I was like, Yes, animals have shaped my life and continue continue to shape my life and are the joy of my life. Um I had never had kids and I um and pretty okay with it, you know. I didn't know if I wanted them or not, so here I am. And um I remember saying to my husband, I was like, you know, I'm not really afraid of getting older, um, continuing to get older um without kids because animals, like what a joy of life. I mean, I now that we have this, I would never have gotten a puppy because I'm very pro getting older, complicated dogs that will get adopted, um, but which I have one, and he is so sweet, but he is scared of all things. So I got her for him. And the joy, oh my God, he is such a different dog already.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

It's only because you got a dog for your dog, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Well, because I got him to emotionally support me after I lost my emotional support animal. And then he's like, I'm not that dog. And so we needed to get an emotional support animal for us, right? Because neither of us are um, but I think him and I have really come a long way. I mean, we've come a beautiful long way. He's he's a loving, sweet boy, but he just had a really tough early life, and it's just it's yeah, it's who he is now.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

It's hard, it's hard, and working for so long in with so many different people and in so many different facets of veterinary medicine too, you see different things. Like, yeah, I, you know, rehoming is in itself, and I've had worked with people on this, like, is in itself a type of grief. So, you know, I'll have someone who's like, I had to rehome my cats at this age because of XYZ. And there are having worked adjacent to a shelter, like there are valid reasons to to rehome a pet. There are also many people who see pets as disposable and accessories, and that's heartbreaking. So there's space for all of it. Um, there are also, you know, pets that I still think about, I mean, from ER and from working in in nonprofit that were, you know, brought in by animal care and control from dog fighting situations and like didn't make it. And to have to, you know, and I remember in ER, I remember one in particular that came in and I'm I I don't I'll spare you the detail, but it was terrible. Um, and he couldn't be saved, um, but he was very sweet and he was still eating though. And so we ordered him um Chinese food, like we ran next door and got Chinese food. And so, so yeah, so when you're talking about like so it all runs the gamut of you know, people who lose a pet and then it's like they're, you know, losing a limb or something, you know. I where I where I refer to like losing Jack as like an amputation of my soul is what it feels like. Um and so there are people that connect to their companion animals on that deep of a level. And then there are people, you know, the worst of the worst who think they are disposable and and someone steps in. Um and that's, you know, in that mud often, you know, where we see that compassion fatigue is to be the person that continually steps in and supports on both ends of that spectrum. And it just with no break and it just um yeah it's burnout but it's a it's like a it's an emotional emotional so people will say like oh it's is it draining to work with people who are or to support people like sit with them in grief. And it's like I mean in some sense yeah but having seen what I've seen and worked in the spaces I've worked in it's like these are the the best part of humanity. Like these people are the best part of humanity because these are people who love their companion animals so much that you know that they're seeking that kind of support. So so it's it is sad, but it's also incredibly rewarding and it does remind you like there are really, really good people everywhere. And so many people just walking around grieving just trying to do their best.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

So true. Like Emily has said multiple times you just never know what other folks are carrying, you know, and they will care some may carry it very well. And I hate that saying like oh but um you're doing it with such grace. Fuck grace grace.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Like I don't I hear that a lot I hear I have heard that so much over the past few months and if anyone is listening that has said that to me um like that's very kind of you to say it and I appreciate it in the moment. But also no I'm not you know when people are like carry it with such grace. No well you haven't seen me you don't fucking know in the worst moments I assure you you know um it's ugly and like grief can be really ugly and yeah and that's also okay.

SPEAKER_03 46:09

I got I got that a lot with cancer. I bet yeah like external comments oh you look so good you're doing so good look at you you're out doing this and it fuck off for one yeah I remember being at the visitation for our son we had a visitation and um I I don't even I mean it's a blur but I remember someone that was like I just don't know like how you're how you're doing it or something.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

And I was like well the alternative is to fill my pockets with rocks and walk into a lake. I mean like I'm not I'm just doing it because you know I'm I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Like I have no other choice. My my body wakes up every day it wants to breathe the my heart wants to beat my eyes want to open and I'm functioning. Yeah. But inside it's a bonfire of chaos and gremlins and tears and all the horrific things you can't even imagine that you can't even put to words right yeah that is happening inside of me and all the emotions. Some days I just wanted to fucking laugh because I couldn't be angry enough. Yeah. You know and it just came out as laughter and you know other days sobbing when I just saw a little bird outside and right I mean we're I think us as you know our the human species we're capable of so much emotion and unfortunately our society tells us to squash it down all 100% time.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

So this is and this is something too that we talk about I talk about a lot if if I'm supporting somebody is uh and remind myself of is we we can carry so many things. I am so fucking sad. Every moment of every day from the moment that I wake up and to the moment that I go to bed and I've explained this to my to my mother who's like I just can't fix this for you and it's killing me you know it's like I I'm not gonna lie to you I'm so fucking sad but I'm also so grateful for the things that I do have and for my family and like I had the and I also have a lot of joy like we can hold a lot at one time. And I do tell people because because society is really like our culture is really like you know I hope the tide is turning but it's but there's a lot of like um stoicism is often praised. And so what I I don't remember where I heard this but I really like this idea that people say like grief comes in waves um which is true um in a lot of ways that's true. Alternatively sometimes it feels like joy comes in waves and grief is just the new baseline. But but yeah absolutely grief it does come in waves and sometimes it's totally unexpected. And so I I like to tell people something that's helped me is um you know when you're a kid and you're at the beach and like you when a wave comes I don't know if you remember doing this like when a wave comes you can't you can't turn around and run from it. You're you would probably try. But the best thing you can do and what you learn to do when you're a little kid is to just d dive into it and you come out on the other side. And so why I was talking recently to another mom who is in my it's like a support group um and about just crying in public.

unknown 49:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

And like when it comes you just dive into it and what other people think is their problem not mine. That's not my business. But um as RuPaul says what other people think of me is none of my business but you know but I why the wise RuPaul um but yeah I think that you know dive in and sometimes that looks like as it has for me finding the bench that's at the grocery store and just sitting there and crying and it it just is what it is you know or being on the floor of the nursery or like Mother's Day was really hard for me leaving if you need to leave. And another wave will come but there's a little while before it does you know but you can't just sort of have to dive into it. I don't know I don't think stoicism helps anyone so that that's a lot of what the supporting is just validating you know that this is real.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

You hear her snoring I do it's so perfect. It's real cute. You're boring her to death she's really bored that pet loss grief is real grief, you know she's bored by this yeah I do want to say that I've I find the most um the I don't even know the word seeing um you know you see footage of of funerals sometimes and the ones where the women are screaming and crying and letting it out and breathing it in and being there in it I feel like why did we all stop doing that? Like I don't you know like my family very stoic you know and also kind of one of those things where and when this was more when we were younger the the the generation above my parents' generation was you know you keep your secrets at home you know no one needs to see behind the curtain. Like styling yeah exactly and so uh you know my mom has been through a lot of things where she kind of went through it in private um and didn't uh but she uh just really quickly she um was raped when we lived in Guam and she told me recently this is something I had never known um that uh that women when people learned about it she had women that said oh well you can you could see Sandy through the curtains you could see her walking around in her nightgown that was one group of people and then other groups would slip her n notes quietly and not say a word but say I've also been raped and I am so sorry that you're going through this. Like those are like wild um and I I don't know how I segue from crying at funerals to mom's rape but I always like to just bring in the mom rape because you know who doesn't um just drop that in there well it's a lot more um I mean sadly probably many people can relate to that so that's why I say therapy is wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

I am in therapy I am not a psychiatrist I am not a therapist I am a grief specialist I'm here to sit with you support you in your grief if if someone is you know not eating for weeks on end and there are certain things that you it's like please seek medical attention you seek specific help. But most of the time what we need is for our grief to be tended and to be shared and to be witnessed and heard and there is so much you know healing is a we is a word I'm always kind of weird about because like grief isn't an illness. So like we don't but but you know there is so much healing in community um for every kind of pet loss grief where people often just feel so alone and like you know I'm not allowed to feel this way or like I'm not allowed. I mean we barely have bereavement uh leave for you know humans. I mean much less you you say I I need to take you know the week off because my dog died. I mean it's yeah there's a there's a huge stigma attached there. So and there are a lot of parallels with um you know with um pregnancy and infant loss and and pet loss I think um obviously they're not the same and I always say you know comparison doesn't help anybody grief competitions don't help anybody but there are a lot of parallels in terms of how society views these things as not significant or you know not as debilitating as they really are.

SPEAKER_03 54:10

And and it can be it it is for me you know I've lost one pet and I couldn't speak to anybody for three weeks. Yeah and I feel a much stronger bond with my little one now than I did with the other one and it keeps me up at night sometimes thinking I it will happen. I mean either one of us could go first but it will likely happen and how will I get through it?

SPEAKER_00 54:37

So I'm I'm glad to have met you Lindsay Yeah it's um I think and that and and that's so common too by the way I hear that so often of like people will be like hey so I'm sitting here looking at my perfectly healthy two year old cat. Yep um just very dark thoughts and it's like no that's that's normal that's anticipatory grief. That's normal. So um you're not crazy for sensing that.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Well Emily I'll tell you that um I for years after I I got in recovery I was like when my dog dies I will not survive like I just knew it my soul she had been she slept with me like after she died in the middle of the night I would reach for her. And so I started putting gummy bears in my bed as sour gummy bears I would reach for sour gummy bears and I still eat candy in bed to this day. Hey that's how it takes what it takes. But um that's actually really smart. Did someone tell you to do that no I just love candy and was like fuck it.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

Well no that that's actually that's actually really smart because just for anybody who's listening because what what you're what you're what you're basically doing is like if you are in the moment and you're and you're like ruminating on something or you're over like you're having trouble coming back to the present moment, then eating something sour or putting something cold on your face is a really good way to do it. So you're it makes sense. Maybe you're ahead of the curve.

SPEAKER_01 56:03

I'm just curious if someone told you to do that or if you just like intuitively did and and maybe somebody did I don't recall like I always think like sometimes that was my idea but I'm like was it um but uh yeah that was and I still now I'm onto jelly beans but yeah so I I I still eat them in bed and tough shit. She was she was my life but I will say it hurt like hell it was yeah you know there was really isn't anything I can compare it to loss wise um that I've experienced in my life I was ready for it. I didn't think I was ready for it. When it was happening I wasn't ready for it. But looking back like you know you don't think you're ready for it but the the universal prepare that's just was my experience. But uh yeah I thought for sure I'm gonna just go get on heroin and just obliterate myself but I didn't I cried a lot I talked about it a lot I cried in front of people a lot. That's what's great about AA man you can go to an AA meeting and sob for an hour about your pet and everybody is right there with you.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Like because greed deserves to be witnessed and that is like the most powerful thing I think is to be able to say because one of my I mean if anybody's listening and you're like how do I help a friend through any kind of loss but pet loss as well it's like when someone starts talking to you about it, if they want to talk about it, don't be weird. Don't just stop talking about it. Don't change the subject you know ask them like well what's what's your favorite memory with your pet or like what's something really funny that they did. I love talking about my pets. I love talking about Jack. It's really hard it's really hard you know but but the group of moms that I have for support who've also been through this like God bless the internet is um we talk about our babies all the time. And so you know it's like I know that our pets are all like little weird little individual beings and I still remember things that my I call her my sole dog Ellie who was an absolute terror and hated everyone but me she was like the worst the worst. And I loved that dog. We understood each other. I was like I see you both unwell um she had like the most annoying hobbies habits and then you missed them you know and so just at the weird quirks that they had and yeah. Keep that grief public like if you what do they say if you put put a light on something is the best way to um I don't know there's a someone's listening and it's they're like yeah shouting they've got it yeah yeah put some light on it shake shape shine a light on it yeah um get some air on it put the stank on your grief get that out there make everybody see it smell it put the stink on your grief TM and sometimes you do just feel so unhinged in it too also which is fine like to resist when you're when someone like there are so many times I was in the grocery store the other day and there is a woman she's not gonna hear this there's a woman behind me with like eight jars of pasta sauce which I'm not in which was weird anyway like no basket what are you doing oh that's a disaster so close to the back of my neck which is annoying and on speakerphone which is like I just insufferable. And then and I'm just trying to get through it was a bad day I was like I just need to get out of this grocery store I can't people today like it's a bad grief day. And she goes excuse me and I ignored her and she said excuse me and I'm like you know and she said this is all I have like I think she wanted me to let her go in front of me which was I actually sometimes do let people go in front of me. I wouldn't have and I didn't it was like one of these moments where I didn't know what to do and so I just froze and then turned back around because I was so like it was such a bad but what I wanted to do was to yell and I feel like this is just it applies across the board for anybody who's grief. Like what I wanted to do was to yell my baby died that's what I wanted to do. It's like my baby died you know and which would have been very confusing and disorienting but also sorry um and I know that I know you know people in in when you're in pet loss grief too like grief is that it's different for all of us and but it is there is like this universal language of it where you just you want you have these days where you're like I just feel unhinged. Yes that's normal too anyway again I'm Michael Scotting again I don't know where I was going with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

No but I want to ask what did you what what happened with the jar gal?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

Oh I literally I I told the moms in the support group about this. I was like here's we at the thing where it's like what did you do today that was unhinged? Um I literally just stared at her. I literally just stared at her. So she was so she's like this is all I have and I was like good I just turned back around and then she and I didn't say anything and it was letal so it's like you it's already it's already like a high pressure sport because you have to bag your own stuff and so you're just like I'm doing my best you know um good for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

I bet she felt it yeah I bet you that she was like something something's up and I'm gonna back down.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:27

I mean maybe I will say for anyone who's going through grief right now that it if you are sitting there thinking like oh my God I never realized in my life how many people lack the capacity to read the fucking room like you're not alone. That is so real. Yeah um oh my God I have always been pretty good at reading the room but I mean that's when you realize when you're like going through it there are a lot of people who I don't know how they've made it this far in life without just you know walking into oncoming traffic.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:58

I mean they cannot read a room um they're just in themselves yeah that is not you that is a reflection of those people but absolutely while we've been talking my cat has brought in two of her toys she wants me to play with her.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

It's time to play man or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

Oh no no no no they do that cute she drags them in from the other room and she's like all right I'm up let's let's focus on me now yeah let's get back to the real the real joy of life which is um well before we let you go Lindsay um Courtney has a question to ask you what what she's like do I I don't know what do we always ask oh my gosh I'm so sorry my tooth I thought was tooth was falling out I do have a question to ask I just had to here we go there's no THs in the question I don't think no the question is um what's the nicest thing that someone's ever done for you and it can be small big recent long time ago like just pops into your head I think I mean there well there I'm very fortunate that we have so much love and support that has surrounded us it all the time and I think that's probably because of the circles I'm in like animal people are good people um and my family is good people so um so there are so many especially lately that it is really hard like the number of people who have showed up just to be like hey this this thing that happened to you like losing your baby it's really fucking terrible and you don't have to pretend it's not I mean that's means a lot I think the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me I don't know about nice but kind um my I don't know if I can get this one out but my husband when we I think when you go through something like this it makes or breaks you um and again we were surrounded with so many good people my OB came and nurse like came to the visitation.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:07

I mean just but my husband when his mom was dying when she was in hospice in 2022 um he was basically her primary caregiver and I remember he had like a little chart um and I was like I can show you how to make a treatment sheet we do that at work but so he essentially had a treatment sheet for her medications and all of the different things that she needed and you know if you've had someone in hospice you know what that's like and I thought God I hope you know we never have to do this again. And then when we when Jack died um when we came home we came to my parents' house because they were watching our daughter um and we got there and they were just like a godsend but um I mean I couldn't do anything um I you know was just helpless really and so he you know and now looking back it's like it makes or breaks you you find out who people really are and for us you know he made he was making a treatment sheet again and I was like you're right back here again. Um he had an alarm set on his phone to make sure I drink water like every hour. I think it helped him in a way to take care of me. But there are these moments that I remember like you know where I you know I just given birth and with no baby. And so to where I was really weak and um not able to like shower on my own or I like I needed him I needed him to dress me and all these different things. I was I ended up getting mastitis because I was like overproducing milk and there was no baby. Like there's just all these horrible layers right and just the way that he took care of me I think is um a horrible horrible thing but also like just made us closer in a way that like nothing else really can And so yeah, I it that's hard to even articulate in words, but I think that's probably the kindest thing. And then the other other one maybe is I remember I was talking to my mom um after we had come home, and um, and she was like, I said something though, like people just don't no one can understand what this feels like. And she was like, Well, what does it feel like? And I was like, No one has asked me that. Like, you know what I mean? Um, and I realized that no one had asked me that. And that's the kind of person she is, she doesn't shy away from tough things. Um, and then maybe I could do this all day. But the last one I'll do is um I had a doula as well, um, Keisha, who's great. And Keisha. Yeah, yeah, Keisha. Ended up being a doula in a different way. Um, obviously. I mean, it she still was incredible and was with me in the hospital, and that was the plan always. Um, but she was by my side. But I remember coming home from the hospital and just being like, I don't know. And I just kept saying, like, I don't know how we can do that. I don't know how I'm gonna do this, you know, because I knew we're gonna walk into this house and there's an empty nursery, and like, I don't know how we're gonna do this. And she was like, Well, I'll come with you. I was like, I don't think you're supposed to, I don't think that's part of the job description, but she, you know, my husband went to get antibiotics for me and she did not want me to be in the house in the nursery alone. And there was an ice storm. Also, there was an ice storm when this was happening too. So it wasn't like it wasn't easy for her to just be like beboping around. Um you know what I mean? But she came and sat he sat with me in the nursery and you know, did not shy away from any of it. And um and that was she came to the visitation too. That meant a lot. I think that the kindness that people have showed us um and showed me since January is um has just been overwhelming.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:01

Yeah. What is your husband's name? Do you mind if I ask? No, I don't mind. Uh his name is Jay. I'll ride Jay. I'll ride Keisha, Bebop and Keisha, and your mama. Karen, but she's not really a Karen. Karen.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:14

Oh God, poor thing. All those poor Karen.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:19

She doesn't get mad. So when people are like, You're such a care, like she doesn't get mad because she's like, but that's not me. Why would I get mad? So, you know. It's perfect. That's like the full circle.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:32

Oh well, Lindsay, thank you so much for coming on today and sharing your story. It's so many wise words, and just yeah, thank you. Um, if people want to reach out to you, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:48

Yeah, they can find me. Um, I'm not a huge social media person, but I have Instagram. Um, I have a work Instagram, and that's Everkin Pet Loss.

unknown 1:08:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:56

So forkin, like forever family. Um, so Everkin Pat Loss. And then um, I also my website is everkinpetloss.com.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:05

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

Thank you. I mean, either of those places. Great.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:09

Well, yeah. Um, I'm yeah, anyone struggling with pet grief, she's a good wonderful resource to have.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:17

Unbelievable. Just you're the validation I think that you provided in this episode for people like saying the pet losses just, you know, because you've been, you've experienced two major losses. But what you said was just so powerful. Um, I just really that's moved me. And I I still have to process. It's so beautiful. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

I think all grief deserves support. And when we support each other instead of sort of trying to compete, it it helps everybody. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:52

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:53

Thank you. And to all of our listeners, thank you so much for joining us today. Um, if you need to reach out to us, uh, we can always get in touch with Lindsay as well. You can email us at that wasn't the planpod at gmail.com. And please follow and subscribe wherever you listen and watch all your podcasts.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:12

Smash that like button. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:14

Give us those likes. Hey guys, subscribe. Great review, follow us. It helps. It helps. All right. Well, until next time, Lindsay Courtney, thank you. Yeah, take care. And okay, bye-bye, everyone. Thanks for listening to That Wasn't the Plan. If you found it helpful or at least mildly entertaining, a quick grading review and a click on the subscribe button would be lovely. And it genuinely helps us. And if a friend comes to mind, please share. Until next time. Bye.