SPEAKER_00 0:04

That wasn't the plan. Well, hello, Courtney Holland. Hello. Hi, Emily, Emily White. And to all of our listeners, thank you for uh joining us on That Wasn't the Plan. Having a tough time getting my words out today. Um we are also joined by two former guests, Melissa Kegler, the Ice Mermaid, and America's favorite virgin, Sarah Beth Wood.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Everybody's favorite virgin.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Making a sash. And and we have one very special guest today. Courtney, I'll let you introduce her.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

Well, we still, I think Poppy is the name because no one wants me to name her Patricia, which cracked me up. This is our new little lady. And all she wants to do is just do this. And this, my uterus, is finally silent. She's finally stopped crying for a baby animal every time I see one. So God bless her. God bless Patricia. Or Phyllis. I wanted to name her Phyllis.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

I'll be a P. I love the older, like when dogs are named like Gary or Frank or like or like some like older human name. Patricia.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

I like Phyllis or Patricia. He wanted to name her. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

What did he want to name her? I think it's Poppy. I think we're gonna go with Poppy. Uh Jonathan initially wanted to name her Snickers, and I was like, what? I don't know why. It just really, I was like, that's she looks like a Snickers bar. I'm like, she doesn't. She doesn't look like heaven. She's a Snickers bar. She looks like she's going to appease my baby fever. And that is what she's well, baby animal fever, not baby human.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

There we go. Yeah, there you go. Well, everyone, thanks for jumping on. I know it's beautiful where you're at. Um Courtney, I don't know what the weather is like where you're at, but it is winter where I'm at again. So I just keep flying from one state to another where it's just cold and cold and cold. So I think that sounds like an ice swimmer in the making. Oh, don't tempt me, Melissa. That's what I heard. That's what I heard from that. I am back in Colorado right now. Um, I'm in my parents' basement. Um, not far from where you were gonna do your ice swim, Melissa. It's just like a hop, skip, and a jump away. I've swam over there before, but I'm glad you were able to do that in Idaho. I'm not quite sure how to introduce this episode, so I'm just gonna kind of riff on some notes that I made. And so basically, this episode is for if you're an athlete, a dedicated sports viewer, or someone who likes to comment on sports, um, then this episode is definitely for you. And I just kind of want to start by saying that I believe, you know, as a woman athlete myself, that all women athletes are kind of exhausted at this point. And it's not just from training or playing, it's not the impossible math of living a life outside of their dedicated sport. It's the comments, it's the peanut gallery, it's the strong opinions and the zero athletic credentials weighing in on everything except her actual performance and the game that she plays. Her shorts are too short, her bra's too tight, her arms are too muscular, her face isn't friendly enough, her ponytail's too high. Meanwhile, did anyone actually watch her performance, watch the play? Likely not. They're all just too busy commenting, looking at her appearance, talking about her thighs. And it's usually men, but it's not always men. Um so I wanted today to talk to two of the most incredible athletes that I know personally from the swimming community: Melissa Kegler, Triple Crown swimmer, uh, Ice Mermaid, U.S. record holder in ice swimming, and Sarah Beth Wood, who you know was a champion on her collegiate team, um, breaking records, you know, all across holding titles. And I know that they both have had their difficulties performing as an athlete because of the comments, possibly pressure that was put on them. So we need to try and reinforce just how amazing we are as women, um, but also kind of the double standard between men, uh, male athletes and female athletes. So thank you both for joining us today. Welcome, ladies.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

I'll jump in and say um great, great intro, Emily. I would say um I agree that a lot of the comments come from men. However, the worst comments I've ever received as an athlete has come from women. And it is so frustrating because I feel like as women, we understand how those comments hurt us and how they can, especially young kids and young girls. And when I say young girls, like anybody under 25, you know, I'm in the effect that that has going into adulthood. And I know Emily and Courtney on the last episode, you you introed with a large reason of why I continue doing sports is because I don't ever want to see my my nephews and my niece see me not try. And you know, the trying part is irrelevant of the outcome. I just want to show that it's important to try. But another big thing is I can't even begin to imagine if what is said to me, I'll talk like an old person, back in my days. Uh, back in my day when we didn't have social media, it just wasn't prevalent. We didn't have all the inundation of everything that we have today. And I'm terrified for my niece and especially my niece, but also my nephews growing up and what those comments may do to them today. So that's why I'm so excited for this episode. I'm really excited to hear, you know, Sarah Beth, your story and you know, some of the things you faced because I I didn't face as much in college, but there are definitely some things that that hurt. But most of you know, my um my comments and issues came as an adult over the age of 30, which is also it's I have a little different perspective because I was an adult hearing those things for the first time, thinking, oh my gosh, what what if this is when I was 15? What if it was my first year in college? How would have that affected me today? I have thicker skin today, a little bit, because you know, as adults and in women, we grow that skin, but it's um I can't imagine what that does to young kids. So I think this is gonna be a great episode. Thank you, uh, both Court and Emily for doing this today. And can't wait to hear and share from everybody. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Um, yeah, I mean, I think it's a really important topic, especially for, as Melissa pointed out, for like younger people who aren't established in like who they are. And and I think about how it's still hard for me as a 40-year-old to like combat the negative thoughts in my head whenever I get down about like something about how I look. Um and so it's infinitely harder when you're growing up and you're insecure and you just are just trying to like fit in and match them, like whatever is like the hot, like new look. Like I think there's so much pressure on us from society um to look a certain way and to be appealing to men. Um, and I'm just so ready to like break that. And I think on the flip side, there's a lot of this going around um with awesome athletes in the public eye, like Ileana Mayer. I don't know if I said her name right, but um, just like out there trying to like combat this in a very public way. Um, and I'm just like, oh man, I wish I had had this. I wish I had seen this. But like when I was, you know, 18, 19, 20, like going through college. I think it would have just changed the outcome of my collegiate career in a big way.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

So and it, you know, it's not just for athletes too, because I've struggled my entire life, still do with body image. But it just so happens that, you know, when you're trying to do something out, you know, a sport outside of just daily life, that you do need your body to perform a certain way, but you've got that other side of society wants me to look and act, you know, kind of like this, but my sport actually requires me to either gain weight, build muscle, do this or that. That where's the healthy balance there?

SPEAKER_02 9:08

So I've always everybody's everybody is different. Like since I was in eighth grade, I weighed 150 pounds. Like that like has been my body. Like, and it's just like that's just the way that yeah. I weighed like, yeah, boom, and that was like it. And that's like my like pretty standard fluctuate, you know, it fluctuates. Um, but yeah, um, and but that wasn't like back then, that was definitely not the look like in the late 90s and early 2000s. It was like how skinny can you be? Um it was all wafy. Yes, I have so many strong feelings about this.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Courtney, you were a dancer, correct?

SPEAKER_03 9:51

Uh yeah, well, uh eating disorder is part of my story, and with the you know, addiction, drugs, and alcohol. Um, but I remembered the most traumatic thing that happened to me regarding well, not traumatic, I don't know if I can use that, but I was the first girl to get boobs. I was in fifth grade, and it was like there they were. And so when we would wear leotards, I was the only one that had boobs. And it was it felt like I was fat. Like, I don't know where I got that from, but like I felt fat because of my boobs, and so I hated my boobs for a long time. And then I got single when I was in my 30s, and I was like, okay, I kind of am grateful for you ladies now. Okay, but other than that, like, yeah, the wafy, the wafy, like shoulder, like always walking like that. And I was a ballerina, like like smaller I could be, the better. Um, but yeah, the boobs, the boobs, I hated them. Got it. And then people would say, Wow, your boobs look really big today. And I heard, you are really fat. That's what I would hear, even though that's not what they meant. But um, that was hard. And then, you know, going to college and taking all the dance majors' classes. Um, I wanted to be a wafy dancer, you know, ballerinas or waifs for the most part. And then we have that beautiful new, not new, and of course I won't be able to think of her name right now. She's phenomenal, and she has got a women's a woman's body. And um her name is on the tip of my tongue. Oh gosh, Court Copeland. Oh, Missy.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Oh, Misty, Misty Copeland. Misty Copeland, Missy.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

Yeah. Um, Misty Copeland is, you know, I mean, that she she has broken so many barriers uh with everything, but like also just her body type and being a prima ballerina is pretty phenomenal. Um but yeah, and then going to LA and and trying to have a career in Los Angeles, like, which I didn't really try all that hard because I was like, I don't think I like this. I don't think this is, I'm gonna just get drunk and then I'm gonna have a problem and then I'm gonna go to rehab. But um, but yeah, like I will say it I do see positive changes in media and like the bodies that girls like uh want now is more a full butt, like you know, the butt, like the butt, thank god. You know, I had a butt from a young age and and it felt like you know why did we want to be waifs? Ugh. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

It it was the look at the time. It was, and I will say, like, there it does do the flip side where you have like with the whole Kardashian body that you see now. It's like it's also another impossible standard. It may not be starving yourself, but it's like people are getting Brazilian butt lifts to look that certain rooms.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Really moving ribs, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

And it's like, y'all, can we just not? Yeah, like let's just let's just let's just be strong and healthy.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Like so here's a question for anybody to answer, and you can all answer. When was the first time you realized that somebody was watching your body instead of your performance?

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Mine was very clear. Um I was I went to uh went to college and swam in college, and I was I was very thin when I started college. And you know how everybody says, oh, the freshman 15. And I hadn't crossed over a hundred pounds yet. So I was very, very thin in high school and went to college, swam, stayed the same weight, even with the free soft serve ice cream bar in the cafeteria, like never peaked and never gained weight that first year. So I thought, oh, I'm not, I'm not gonna like gain my freshman 15. And then between my freshman and sophomore year, Wendy's introduced the spicy chicken sandwich to the Michigan market. And I was obsessed with it. I I'd never had a spicy chicken sandwich before. And it was five dollars and 25 cents, including tax. So it was nice, like I was a math person, so it was nice round numbers. I had $5 bill, I have my quarter, I'm ready. And I ate that stupid combo. I mean, I swear, probably like three or four times a week over the summer. It was so good. And I remember, you know, the first time my jeans didn't fit, but you know, I was what? I was like 18, 19. I didn't really care. I mean, I was still thin. And um I remember my sophomore year going back to college, going on the swim team. And for me, I have a really difficult time eating right after working out. It's just like my stomach doesn't feel good. I usually need to wait 30 minutes an hour. And my coach at the time said, Hey, Melissa, I noticed you've gained a little weight. And there are also comments coming from the parents that I found out after the fact, too, that, oh, Melissa's gotten a little heavier. And um I remember my coach saying, We should get you in to see a nutritionist because you you've gained a lot of weight since last year. And my college swim team wasn't as good as my high school swim team. So I got slower every year I went to college because just the training programs weren't as good. So I would, I guess, regress or point is get slower. So their perception was my weight that I gained was directly impacting my sports when it wasn't necessarily that. I mean, we weren't very good swim team in college. And then, you know, my high school and club teams were top of the state. So it was very different training plans. And, you know, I started working out, I did go see the nutritionist, and we didn't have a Wendy's in my college town. So I was safe for the year from the spicy chicken sandwich, and I started losing weight again. And um, towards the end of the year, I'd gotten back down, still was heavier, you know. I crossed my hundred-pound mark and was now like 110 or something, still very thin. And then I started getting the comments. Hey, Melissa's not eating with the team after practice, and she's losing a lot of weight. And my coach approached me towards the end of the scene and said, Hey, Melissa, we've noticed you've been losing, you know, a fair amount of weight. And, you know, I'm I'm five foot two, so 10 pounds is a lot, you know, on a short frame. We noticed you're losing a lot of weight. We heard you're not eating with the team. Are you sure you're okay? You should go see a nutritionist to make sure you don't have an eating disorder. And I thought, wait a minute. So four months ago, I was too fat and I needed to go see a nutritionist because you just looked at me. And now it's the end of the season, nothing has changed except for Wendy's not being in my college town. And all of a sudden, I'm too thin and I need to go see a nutritionist because you think I might have an eating disorder. And that was the first time I thought something like something isn't right here. Why do they even care? I'm doing everything the same I did last year, and I ended up quitting quitting the team that year because it was just so the back and forth um was so traumatic with people focusing on me. I wasn't getting any better when I was in college. It was all negative and I wasn't fast enough. I was getting slower, I eat too much, I don't eat enough, I don't eat with the team, I'm not what they're looking for. And I feel like I'm very fortunate because I was smart enough at that point in time, or or maybe not smart enough. That's not the right term. Um, because I think you can still be smart and just not aware. But it was the I was the first person I knew that was getting approached. So I didn't have any reference point. And I just said, eh, it's not worth it. You know, I have I have lots of other stuff going on. I like, I like school. Um, I loved school and I loved my classes. So I don't know, I'm not doing good, I'm gonna quit. And that was the end of it. Um, and it wasn't until later on when I started talking to other athletes, and I wish I knew this at the time. It's all the coulda, woulda, shoulda things. I wish I knew at the time other athletes were going through the same thing, and they made the decision to hurt themselves, and they made the decision to not eat, and they made the decision to throw up or um force feed themselves when you know they shouldn't have. I remember another girl, she was a vegetarian, she's on the track team, and she's the first vegetarian I knew. I never knew anybody else, so I was curious curious about what a vegetarian was, and she would, but she would eat bacon over the weekends and eat meat, and she would sit at lunch and cry. And we finally got into conversations because her coach said she was too lean, she needs to build muscle mass, she needs protein. I don't know if we didn't have protein powder at that point in time, but like it wasn't a thing back then. Yeah. So she would force feed herself meat on the weekends, and it like broke my heart to see her do that to herself, knowing that it's not her beliefs. It was everything against what she stood for. And the more I started paying attention in the school, and the more I thought, oh my gosh, is what happened to me common? And I again, I wish I knew then that it was because I didn't, you know, I wasn't, even though I was in athletics, I wasn't like tight in the athletic community because I loved academics so much. Um, and I just wish, well, Sarah Beth, as you said, I wish I had that person when I was like 18, 19, and 20 that was talking about those things, that was having a different body type that was prevalent and speaking up. And I just wish I could go back in time because I remember like that was the beginning of seeing these things, is when I went back to school, there was nothing that changed except for this restaurant that wasn't in town. And why did people care? I mean, why, and especially why did the parents care that I gained weight? I mean, 110 pounds is not that big. I mean, it's it's less than half my body weight or more than half my body weight now. I mean, I'm like two of me back then, and it just it hurts so bad. I just wish I could go back and do something. And that's kind of like that's why this topic is so important. Cause I I hope somebody hears that and realizes, wow, somebody said that to me. That's kind of messed up. I think something might be wrong.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Sarah Beth, you had um you had some issues swimming in college too, didn't you? Or did you?

SPEAKER_02 21:04

I did. Um, yeah. So on our college team, um, and I was in college, just to give like time reference, from 2003 to 2007. And we did weigh-ins um on the team. Oh god. Oh wow. And is that normal in swimming?

SPEAKER_03 21:27

Yeah, is that normal? I feel like I've heard of that happening, yeah. I on our swim training.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

I know it's for like wrestling and stuff, but I've never heard that for swimming.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

So we would do weigh-ins. Um, I do know that they do not do that anymore, which is great. I was fortunate because um I uh have a lot of muscle mass, and so my weight, the number like is high, but it's I'm five foot seven and I have a lot of muscle. So it's gonna be higher, and I look like an athlete. You know, like the traditional view, like view. A lot of other women on the team didn't. Their bodies were different. And so I think that they had a probably a different relationship to those weigh-ins than maybe I did. Um, and I don't like we didn't talk about this stuff. Like, we didn't talk about the weigh-ins, we didn't talk about nutrition, like it was just not a part of the training regimen, and it should be. Um, but during my the between my junior and senior year, um I was like super anxious. I had a great junior year. Um, I had like gotten best times and and then I, as I was going into my senior year, I was like, I think I was so anxious about not performing well and like not being better than I was, and like having a new class of freshmen come in and being like, oh my gosh, are they gonna take over? Are they gonna be better than me? Are they like, am I gonna like fall and just like drop the ball and not be like the best, you know, in my like events or whatever? Um, and I I think that paired with the like what was considered attractive and sexy at the time for women, which was being super thin, something that I never was. Um I think those two things compounded on each other and I developed a really bad eating disorder. I was anorexic for a couple years, um, starting between my junior and senior year of college. And I got very thin, but I was still very muscular, and nobody thought that I was doing something bad because I was just getting super cut. So I looked like super ripped. Um, and people would compliment it. And yeah, it wasn't until like a month or so before our championship meet, I remember being swimming in events, like I think the hundred backstroke or 200 backstroke, I can't remember. It was the hundred. And I remember pushing off the wall for that last 25, and I was like, okay, turn it on. And I it was literally like if you tried to crank a car and like there's no gas or like the battery's dead, it was just like my body was like, nope, there's nothing there, and it was awful. And then my coaches were like, Oh, we need to get you in to see somebody. Like, we need to, and I was so oblivious to it. I had never been more like unaware of what was happening in my body. Um, I wasn't intentionally restricting my eating, like I was, but it was like not until after the fact when I like when that whole breakdown happened that I realized what I had actually been doing. Um, and when I saw like spoke with one of the trainers in the athletic department and then went and saw a doctor, and they were kind of asking me those like questions that I realized what had been happening. Yeah, it was really wild. I was like, I've never been that like unaware of what I was doing to myself. It was pretty crazy to have and then like have somebody put a mirror on it and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

You just thought that oh, here I am, I need to lose some weight, and then immediately your brain just went to stop eating. Every time you'd load up your plate, it was less and less.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Yeah, I think um I don't even know if it was that like intentional. I think I think a lot of it, I think I had a lot of anxiety and and it kind of all just compounded. And yeah, it was because at the time, like I mean, I think we weren't we were living off campus too, and so it wasn't like you were going to the cafeteria, so you were kind of you know on your own for like feeding yourself, and I think that left it up to like you could restrict and not buy as much and not eat, not have all the options just like readily available to you, like at the buffet, like in in the eating hall. I'm I'm still like I still think about this all the time. Like, what went wrong? What happened? Like, and it does like I'll wake up at night and be like, oh my god, that was just an awful time. How did this happen? And I'm rambling now, but it was really, really bad. Um, and I'm still trying to like, I think, come to terms with that a little bit and just accept that that's how it was because my collegiate career didn't in the way that I wanted it to, and I never got to like hit the goals that I wanted to hit because I hadn't been treating my body well. Right and that was it. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

And like to your point, you can't perform if you're not fueling your body. And Melissa, I know this is huge for you because of what you do, you're ice swimming. You have to protect your internal organs in that freezing cold water, and in order to do so, you've chosen to gain weight.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

And that, yeah, and that that was really hard the first time I started doing that. So I originally started um gaining a little bit of weight for my English channel swim because I thought the water is going to be cold, everybody said it's gonna be cold. I just want to be safe and gain a little bit of weight. And um, a really good friend of mine, when I was, you know, going up in clothes sizes, because that's you know the first thing you see, especially at work when you have jeans without the elastic waistband, you know, the first time that button doesn't button or you gotta do the shimmy and wiggle to kind of get in them. And I remember when that started happening, I thought, oh, okay, well, you know, this is interesting. I don't know that I I like it, but at the same time, I didn't really care because I knew it was a purpose. And my good friend said, Well, would you rather be so vain you don't achieve your goal or set vanity aside temporarily and work on it and achieve what you wanted to? And that really got me through the English channel. And then, and there's a lot of controversy in the marathon and ice swimming world of does weight gain really matter or not? I think we talked a little bit about on the last session too. And for me, I just didn't want to. I always go back and think about that. If I don't gain the weight, I don't want to fail and think, man, if I had just like put vanity aside, if I just stayed in that gene size, and if I I just not cared, if I just gained that extra 10 or 15 pounds, would that have made a difference? So for me, it wasn't necessarily for English channel about working through, you know, the challenges of of gaining buying into the theories of if it mattered or not. I just wanted to give myself the best chance possible of succeeding. And I didn't want to look back and think if I had only done XYZ, if I'd only gained that 10, 15 pounds, maybe that would have been difference. Um, but then the the the whole plan for that wasn't the plan. The whole plan at that time was to stop after the English channel and not gain any more weight and kind of get back into that dress I had in my closet that I bought of this is gonna be my post-English channel dress. I'm gonna lose the weight when I'm done and I'm gonna fit into this sucker. And then I discovered ice swimming. And it was okay, well, I'm gonna gain a little more weight because at that point in time I could feel the extra five and 10 pounds helping with the cold. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna gain a little bit more weight. And then my goals started getting bigger, and I had to, you know, really dial into nutrition. And how do I gain weight healthily? Luckily, when you gain weight, you give yourself a little attitude of eating crap, more crap than you probably should, but you still got to be healthy. But the perception was like today, I've never had one of these before. It's a caramel frappuccino with extra whipped cream. And sounds delicious. I just thought, you know what? I've never had one of these, but it showed up on the menu and I thought, I'm gonna get that one, and I'm gonna get the big one instead of the little one. So when you get things like that, and when you are eating a donut, because people bring donuts on Saturday at Swim, people look at you and they look at your size, they look at what you immediately have in your hands, and they say, She doesn't eat healthy. And they don't stop to think maybe this is an occasional treat. Or, you know, I mean, again, I've never had one of these drinks before. It just looked good today, and it's probably my full day of calories, and I don't really care because it's fun for me and I'm gonna have it. But the perception is she's eating unhealthy. She's not, you know, she eats like this every day. All she eats is donuts and chips and all the bad stuff. And especially with ice swimming, when I was gaining weight, of course I eat that stuff, but I'm also eating a lot of extra vegetables. I'm eating, you know, a bigger salad in that comes with extra dressings. So it's all these little things to kind of add up over time. If I do get, you know, a smoothie, I'm getting the protein builder, which has a lot more protein, and I'm getting the big one. So all these little things to, you know, help gain weight, but do it the right way. I'm not sitting here eating, you know, two dozen donuts on my couch in the middle of the day. But people don't see that. And that kind of translated into, you know, some of the negative, negative comments. Like the amount of comments I got at the gym about my weight is just like unbelievable from people. The amount of times people said, wow, I you're a really good swimmer, you look really good in the water. You know what? Here's my card. If you gained, you know, a little bit more speed, you could probably do that if you lost about 10 pounds. And why don't you come see me for a personal training session? And I'm thinking, I don't need one, actually, thank you, but I'm good.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Mind your business. Gosh. I know more about my sport than you do.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Yeah, it was just so many. And so so many people would say, you could be this if you did this. And you know, sometimes they're just want to say, actually, you realize I'm the US record holder, right? There's nobody else in the country better than me right now for distance ice swimming. So I know my sport. Here's my medal. Yeah, I'm fine with it. So, so I'm I'm good. And, you know, sometimes I even now like I sit back and I hear myself say that, and I go, huh, maybe I do have more to bargain with with these people that make comments. But the worst comment I ever got, um, I was training for ice swimming. It was cold winter day. Glenn and I went out to E B landing in Washington, which is like so beautiful. And nobody was really there. And we're swimming. And how Glenn and I swim is usually if it's a cold winter day, I'll swim first. And he's on land, and then we'll switch and he'll go in and swim. I'll keep the car warm because he needs a little bit more warmth than I do immediately after the swim. And so we have safety and we watch each other. And Glenn was out there, and I had just gotten done, and I was like all wrapped up, and there's a woman sitting in her car, and we got to chatting, and she was saying, Oh, you know, have you ever heard of the English channel? I'm like, Oh, yeah, you know, I swam that earlier. And they never done that. It was a great conversation until she just stopped out of nowhere. Glenn was getting done, he's walking out of the water, and again, Glenn's tall, like he looks in shape. He's tall, he's lean, he looks muscular, and you know, he kind of looks like a little Daniel Craig walking out of the water, James Bond-ish. And um she looked at him and she looked at me, and she just said, You're overweight. And I it it was so direct. I mean, it was just it was literally just that direct. And I mean, she's not a friend or family member, a doctor, she's a stranger that I've only been talking with for 10, 15 minutes. And I said, Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know. I was just so in shock, I didn't know what to say, and said, Yeah, well, yeah, but I I'm gaining weight, and you know, for my ice swimming, and I gained some for the English channel, and she turned and said, Well, you're gonna have to lose weight and slim down if you want to keep a man like that. Oh, and that was the worst comment I've ever received in my life. We talk about like having thick skin as older women, and I almost broke down and like cried right on spot. I was, I was hurt, I was upset, I wanted to decker. I like there's so many different emotions running through my body. And I always say nature provides. And right after she said that, there was like a whole bunch of otters in the water that distracted me from the situation of, you know, being the person I'm not and really kind of lashing out at her. So Glenn and I, we just got in the car, and I think I must have unloaded, not at Glenn, but like unloaded to Glenn about this awful woman for a half an hour at least, and then on the way home, and then on the ferry, and then after the ferry on the way home. And so when we talk about like negative comments and all these things, women are the worst. And it like it breaks my heart. And to be that blunt about things, and like who has the right to tell somebody that the only person would be my doctor if it's in a controlled setting, if we're actually there for the intent of talking about nutrition, or I'm in a place where my weight is directly impacting my life or something. I would expect that kind of conversation, but I mean, some random person on the beach, and for only the sake of keeping a man, I mean you just don't need it. And I'm sure it's not it's not a unique story, too, which is the sad part. No, so but that was definitely by far like the worst comment I've ever received, and it was so hurtful that it is, you know, by by a woman too.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Yeah. Who said a license plate number? I can't I I wish I wish asking for a friend.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Courtney's gonna come out and cut a bitch.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

It was a blue car. So if you see an older lady, shoulder length, gray hair, blue car, maybe that's her.

SPEAKER_03 37:28

That seems to track for the older generation. Yeah. I've definitely had harsher comments from women that were an older generation.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Yep. I have one right upstairs. So yeah. And it's talk to her about it just kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Ma'am. And it's how they were right. Like it's it's that mentality that society put on them too. Like she's felt that way her whole life as well. That she has to look a certain way so she can keep a man because back in the day she couldn't have a credit card. Right. You know, and it was like, that's so true.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

That's a good mom's my mom's best friend when she was pregnant, um, was told to stay the same weight that she was during her pregnancy, which meant the baby adds another 20 to 30 pounds of just fetus, but then the fluids and everything else. So she only ate cottage cheese and celery for the duration of her pregnancy in order to maintain her small, thin. She was probably 5'8, probably 110, and she had to maintain that throughout her whole pregnancy. And this was the late 60s, early 70s, where you know, nutrition wasn't really a topic of conversation, but just how unhealthy. So, yes, I do believe that there's a generational thing there. Um, as we, our generation is doing our darn darndest to push beyond that and to educate ourselves and positively talk about, you know, how healthy it is to eat well and, you know, maintain whatever you need, the muscle mass that you do for your sport, the weight that you need to for your sport. And it brings me back to Melissa, in one of your episodes, uh, Randy made a comment to you and he said, I now look at bodies and think what that body is capable of doing.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Yes. Um, so I remember I was talking to Randy, who the the Al Cai community knows well and dear, and he's like, he's so insightful sometimes. I mean, he has a lot of lot of good advice, but I remember on this occasion we're we were talking about um, you know, because he he was doing an attempt for the English channel too, and that's kind of how all this stuff came up. And we were talking about bodies and smaller people and bigger people, and you know, just what they look like and the the false perceptions of size. And I remember him saying, you know, I'm I'm really looking at people and instead of looking at someone and judging them and thinking what they can't do because of their size, you know, what a what a thin person can't do, what a big person can't do, what a muscular person can't do. Look at them and instead of judging them and framing this, you know, constructing and framing this idea of what they can't do, why don't you push that aside and look at a person and say, wow, they have an interesting, they have an interesting body. I wonder what their body is meant to do. And I wonder what their body is capable of doing. And that kind of opens, you know, again, opens the mind to a different perspective and a different way of thinking about bodies. And, you know, okay, well, maybe they are thin. You know, maybe a thin person can't do ice swimming, but they'd probably be awesome at those hot weather around Key West events that I can't do because I'm gonna overheat. And, you know, maybe a bigger person can't do that, but have they ever tried ice swimming before? So there's all these different things that different body types, you know, can do, but then also they can change and shift their body type. It's not like, you know, they they're gonna stay that way forever. Maybe they want to, maybe they don't. I know if I want to get into warm water swimming, I am going to have to swim in an indoor pool. Step one. Whoa. Go inside. Oh no. Go inside. So that that's like the first turtle of getting to an indoor pool. Um, I do know I am probably gonna have to lose some weight because like I I'm pretty, I'm pretty warm with all my insulation, and it's serving me very well right now. But you know, I was just in Texas visiting the kids. I tell you what, I was sweating my tail off. I woke up sweating, I ate lunch sweating, I was outside walking, sweating, I was like showering, sweating. I swear it was just it was hot. You can't do all that until you get your unicorn swim in. So exactly. Well, and then I start thinking, do I really want to do this? I mean, do I really want to change my body for a different type of goal? I don't know. But if I do, how do I do it healthily? And how do I not give in? And this is like another thing which I don't know, could be an entirely different thing, but how do I do it without taking drugs and medication now? Because ads are everywhere. There's always like a new drug, a new medication. Back in our day, it was the exercise infomercials of like the Thigh Master. Oh, I'm gonna lose weight if I get my Thigh Master. I know, hilarious. So there's there, yeah, there's there's all this stuff, and um, and that's like another thing. I think people should also like be able to the freedom to change their bodies and do it the way they want to and lose weight, gain weight without that stereotype too. So yeah. Oh yeah, I remember those.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

Yeah, get those crunches. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

Yeah. I did purchase the Thigh Master, my mom did, and I remember like I remember thinking, I'm gonna do it in front of the TV. Oh my god. And then I did it, and it was like, and it was it made a creaking noise, and then I was like, oh god. So I had a I I I am now a uh aerobics instructor. I'm one of uh it's a family lineage. My mother was a jazz or size instructor, and then my sister became a jazz or size instructor, and all my life I'm like, that's the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my life. I'm never doing it. And then I turned 30 and I was like, I too will become a jazz or size instructor. So it's just it's hilarious how it happened because I was like, yeah, right, never. And I I love it. I've gone through a couple of periods in my life, which I know a lot of us have, where I've lost a ton of weight because of stress and depression, and then gained it three times fold. So when I started teaching, I had just become sober. I was heavier, I've heavier than I had ever been. And my I my my dad was his heaviest at this time too. And we weighed the same. And I was like, huh. Don't love that. But uh but with sobriety, there was a lot of joy. There was a lot of, so I then was, you know, making these changes. I've started, I became an instructor. And so slowly the weight came off in a very healthy way. It took about two years. Um, and it was so much fun because every pound I lost, I'm such a I'm so delusional. I was like, oh my God, I'm a size two. And I'd go and I'm like, nope, we're still, we're still in the double digits, but I felt so good about myself, it didn't matter. Um I'd I've maintained a body type, you know, since because I was certified instructor in 2012. So anyhow, uh long story short, I did go through a period of time in some in recovery in sobriety where um I had a bunch of teeth surgeries and I went through quite a few life changes at once. Uh I was uh my I I was let go from a dream job I had, a relationship ended, and then I had this awful teeth stuff. So I lost a lot of weight and not intentionally. And I was now I look back at videos now and I'm like, oh wow. But I was I went to a class and I remember I felt good for the first time. Like I felt like I was coming back out of it. And a woman approached me right, right and she's an instructor. She approached me right after class and she goes, Oh my gosh, Courtney, you're wasting away. I am so worried about you. And it it took the because you know, I remember the days when people would say, like, oh my god, you're too thin. And I'd be like, Thank you, you know, like I want to look like I'm dying. Um, and this was a moment where I was so angry. And I also thank Perimenopause for kind of giving me this, you know, a little hut spa and being like, you know what, I'm not okay with that. So I went up to her and I was like, I hope you don't talk to any other students about like that. I was like, you just took the wind out of my sail. I was like, I was so feeling okay. I know I don't look great. I know I look sickly, and it made her cry. And I didn't feel bad because I was like, she has been, she had, I think she had uh said this to other women, you know, just commenting on your body at all. Like it wasn't necessary, and I had just gotten done. I'd forgotten, like, you know, I had no butt. It like I was like when a frog, you pick up a frog and their legs hang down, and I just looked like a you know, sickly old bird, and um with dentures. So I was like, not love and life, but of course the boobs were still there. I don't understand. These boobs, they're like, we're not going anywhere. But um I just was I remember like for so long, the compliment was you look so thin, you look too thin. And it was like, and now I was on the other side of that where I heard you look like you hate yourself. Like that's kind of how, and that was kind of what was going on. I hated myself, and that's why I also hated when I gained a ton of weight, because then I felt like the way I felt about myself inside was showing on the outside, and same with losing a ton of weight. So both sides, I was clearly not being kind to my body and my body that does so many wonderful things for me. And man, Melissa, your what is your body capable of? That wakes me in the night, and I'm just like so inspired by that. Like to look at other bodies. What is your body capable of? Instead of like, oh, there's cellulite, there's not enough muscle tone, there's you know, sagging everything. But but I just you really turned it for me, Melissa, just by that capable. That word is just that was very powerful. But yeah, that was my first time actually standing up for myself and being like, I'm sorry, you can't, you can't go around. And I also said I struggle with an eating disorder, and so you know, this is pretty sensitive stuff to me, and I'm not commenting on your body, and she's beautiful, she's got a beautiful body, and um anyhow, so that was now it's kind of a j a running joke at the center that you don't talk to me, don't comment to me about any anything about my body, and I won't comment about yours. Except that you look healthy, that's all.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Well said, Courtney.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

Yeah, it's well said. It's like, how do you I mean, we've all had people comment about our bodies or our weights in one shape or way or the other on both ends of the spectrum. Yeah, you're too big, you're too small. It's like you can't win. So, a question for y'all is like, when you do see somebody that like my friends when I was going through my eating disorder, never really talked to me about it. They got angry at me. Um how so? Like if they wanted to go eat ice cream. I can remember one time uh two of my girlfriends were leaving the house and they were gonna go get ice cream, and I was like, Well, I'll come with, but I'm probably not gonna get anything. And they were like, No, then you're not coming with. If you're not gonna get anything, you're not gonna come with us. And I I'm not like sh like it's a really hard thing to deal with, I think, for like your friends to watch you go through something like that. And then you start internalizing that. I mean, we're all young women, like trying to, I don't know, fit in like and yeah, and so and I never really had anybody really talk to me about it in like a a a nice way. And um, and it's like, how do you talk to somebody if you notice like somebody's maybe not looking the way that they used to, or like what is a nice way of like trying to get to like that? Because like I could have used somebody to come to me and say, Hey, what's like what's going on? Like, you don't seem like yourself and not make it about body. Yeah, like I was because like clearly I was dealing with some stuff. Like I was like, oh, my anxiety is blossoming, and this is how it's manifesting. Like, how do you talk to somebody without like making them feel bad, without it being about how they look? Because it's mostly not about that. Like, you know, how do you talk to somebody for other young women that are like dealing with this?

SPEAKER_00 50:44

What you said there is a great way to start is just like, hey, just is everything okay?

SPEAKER_02 50:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

Like just start the conversation. You know, we had a guest on Colleen Heber, and she was like, it's four simple words. And this was, you know, going through a breakup like, how do you start the conversation with somebody that you might want to break up with? And she said, Four easy words. We need to talk. So this is kind of in the same vein of you know, approaching a friend or somebody that you might be concerned with. Sure. You know, just being like, Hey, do you want to go for a walk or something? Do you want to like, is everything okay? Just want to make sure you're okay. So maybe that's the way. I'm no actually.

SPEAKER_03 51:21

I like that you don't seem like yourself.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

That's really powerful. You don't seem like yourself.

unknown 51:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Yeah. And it's like I had somebody say um before they were just checking in to make sure I'm happy with where I'm at in life and just say, hey, how how you doing? You know, are you happy with the way things are going? And you know, then you start thinking about, I mean, I was, you know, at the time, so there wasn't really much to talk about. But, you know, I I think about if I wasn't happy, there's there's probably, you know how you know, somebody says, Oh, yeah, I'm fine. And usually the fine is the key word for aha, you know, Emily's not happy. She said she's fine, and it was with a tone, and then you can start. Then you can don't ever start me how I'm doing because that's always the answer. Yeah, then they can start drilling, drilling down a little bit. But yeah, I think you know, go going into approaching it kind of like you do for, you know, mental health and mental awareness is always a great subject because I think they're all intertwined to some degree anyway. Your body's not doing well, you're not treating yourself well physically, you know, that's gonna, that's gonna hit up here too.

SPEAKER_03 52:33

Yeah. And even subconsciously, the way that Sarah Beth went through it, where it was not even intentional, it was a completely like the way you you describe it, it it happens without you even realizing it.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

You know, and Sarah Beth, when you were talking about the two, I was thinking, I wonder how many other people are going through that, not even aware that they're going through that stuff. And I don't know if, you know, because I was thinking if I had a friend, would I even recognize that they're going through somebody? If they're not self-aware, would I be self-aware? And if I was, how would I start that conversation with them? And you know, I think of this, they're probably gonna, you know, deny something at the beginning, like we all do, if we're not aware of something. But yeah, it's a really interesting question. How do you start that conversation, especially if they're not aware of what they're doing? That'd be tricky. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Um, and it's probably gonna be more than one conversation. Yep. Right. You know, it's like kind of always coming back and like gradually, like they're gonna get there. Like you're gonna get there. Like your subconscious doesn't stay buried for long. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

It'll work its way out like a splinter. That's all how I always feel about like, you know, you get the things that you don't share or talk about or don't even know that they're affecting you, eventually they're gonna come out in one way or another, whether it be, you know, numbing out on drugs or food or sex or you know, gambling, whatever, whatever your vice is. Um puppies, it'll come out eventually, and it's just puppies. I've got a dirty puppy addiction now, y'all. Help me.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Everybody has their own thing. I went through a period I was addicted to buying cat condos, and I would saw those, like I was super depressed. Everybody has their shopping weakness, and I found you could buy cat condos for cheap on eBay. And I like I only had one cat at the time, and I had probably like 25 cat condos in the house in a one-bedroom and when I say house, one bedroom apartment that I was renting, not a house. And it was awful.

SPEAKER_03 54:45

I did not think I could love you more, but I love you even more than I am impossible.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

It was it was honestly, it was like the worst addiction. My parents have some of them now for their cats, so I did get rid of them. I only have four five. You're phenomenal. I have a few, but it's less than six, I think. And now you have two cats. So I have two cats. There you go. It's it even's itself.

SPEAKER_03 55:13

I did not expect you to say 25. I know that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

Courtney, it was so much. I mean, they were in the living room, they were in the bedroom, they were lined across the and I when I say cat condos, I'm not talking about small cat condos. I'm talking about like the good deal that you buy for $500 at you know, Petco or something, but they're on eBay for like $89.99 with free shipping. And so if you got that deal, this is bad because now I'm gonna like enable other cat condo addictive buyers on this episode. But like you can get a deal for the big ones for under $100. And so that is it's like four and five feet tall cat condos lining the walls of a one-bedroom apartment. Oh my god. It was horrible. Now I know where to go.

SPEAKER_03 56:01

It was horrible. You dropped that in there. Like you were very brave for you. Like, I had an addiction to buying cot can cat condos, cot candos.

SPEAKER_01 56:12

Everybody has their own thing. It was like the worst period of time I went through.

SPEAKER_03 56:16

Oh, bless your heart, dude. Like so God. I uh I had I have currently an addiction to um jelly beans and only the tropical jelly beans. And I I'm not gonna, I'm gonna just be honest. I spend about $60 a week on jelly beans. Uh, you have to buy them. I buy them, I know. I buy them in these little, I don't have any right now. I was actually thinking while we were in this, I'm like, I gotta go get jelly beans after this. Um they're not cheap because it's at a fancy supermarket and they're in like the thing, but it's a it's it's a problem. And I go there and they see me coming in and they see me getting my five bins of those things, and I'm always like, I thought I'd try them. I don't know. Is it every good? And she's like, bam, I see you every week. And I'm like, well, I know, but um, yeah, at least it's not cocaine, you know? Yeah. That's I'm not, you know.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Yeah, the cat condos aren't like aren't expensive things, and they're not physically harming myself. Absolutely, just financially.

SPEAKER_03 57:28

But it's also providing for those that you love. You love your kitties and you want them to have the best condo. Sometimes you gotta you gotta go through a lot of ugly condos to get to the one that is the one that they will love.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Which is well, Melissa, if this helps at all, I I uh build my cat forts every day so she can take naps inside forts. And when I left yesterday, the house sitter came over and I had to show her how to build the fort. So there's that. She needs to not just one fort, there's multiple forts all over the house that she can choose to take her morning nap in, and I will walk her around and let her choose which one, and then she'll choose, and then I'll go break down the others so my house doesn't look like it's just forts everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

I feel like, do you guys have an episode on I don't want to use the word crazy cat people, but maybe eccentric animal we needers. I feel like that could be one. Well, it'll be the four of us and a few other people. And say that's not the plan. I only intended on buying one.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

Well, Melissa, we need you to go through your cat condo like cribs on MTV. Oh, welcome to my welcome my crib. Come see my cat condos, like you know, and break this.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

Yeah. If you want, you could take video and send it to me, and I'll include it in the edit here. Okay, I can do that.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

She's gonna be, well, this isn't a cat condo, but her window perch. She's like oh my god, she's just like a beam of light.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

She looks like an angel. Yes. Oh so sweet.

SPEAKER_03 59:07

Meanwhile, uh Paul Poppy is dead asleep under the desk in her loose. She's a chill as dog. I hope she's actually not sick. She's just very sleepy. And I'm I love it. I think all newborns are like that. Yeah. Just you wait. Yeah. I know. The pterodactyl, not pterodactyl, the philociraptor. Velociraptor. She's coming and I know it. But at least she's small.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:35

For now. Anyway, it's it's all good. Well, she was free. She was free.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

Even better. Are there any other remarks or advice you'd like to give to any listeners out there? I just love, you know, check in on how someone's feeling, not about how they look.

SPEAKER_03 59:51

I think that's so powerful. What you think about it?

SPEAKER_01 59:54

And the capability of our bodies.

SPEAKER_04 59:56

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

I think it's really important too when you're checking in to give the person permission not to talk to. Absolutely. That's something I make sure I do when I check in with people is, hey, especially if I know they're going through something. Um, I had a friend who was going through a pretty bad divorce a few years ago. And um, I made sure, you know, I said, hey, I know you're going through something. I'm here if you want to talk or not too. And I think just having sometimes people reach out because I think some you get really stressed about, ooh, am I gonna have to talk to them? They reached out, they want to talk, I don't want to talk. You know, there's a lot of people that internalize stuff and it works really well for them, and that's okay too. Um, but just acknowledging and being aware that maybe this person doesn't want to talk and giving the person permission not to say anything really helps as well. Um, and then the other thing I I will mention too that I know I try to do, especially in the summertime when there's families at the beach is I don't want to be, you know, the creepy person walking up to people with kids, but if I see kids in the water that have been in for a long time, I always make sure I try to finagle some way into going and saying, like, wow, you you've been in the water a really good time. You're you're a pretty good swimmer. And giving that that boost to confidence early, um, and just saying you're good at something, because maybe they don't know, especially at a young age, that they're good at doing something. Maybe they don't always have somebody in their life telling them and verbally communicating to them that they're good at what they're doing. And then that starts to get them, you know. I I hope at least thinking that maybe they're gonna ask their parents for swim lessons someday. Or, you know, maybe that thing is gonna sit in their head, that one comment, we talked about that, you know, the way communication and words stick. I know a lot of negative comments stick in our head, but you know, maybe if we work hard at saying one positive thing to a kid that's six or seven, oh yeah, nine, ten, eighteen, nineteen, whoever it is, maybe that one thing is gonna change the trajectory of where they're gonna go and how they view their body, their sport, you know, their life. Like, hey, I noticed you finished that whole book. That's you're a really good reader. You know, I bet you could be in a literary profession or something, you know, even if it's not about sports, but just saying something positive, especially to kids and youth.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:32

Because you don't know where that's gonna go because they're absorbing everything. Um, so I make sure I try to do one comment a week to like a kid that I don't know just to try and give them something positive. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:46

So cool, Melissa. Wow. That's awesome. I I think my word of advice is to everybody to not comment on people's bodies. So like if like if just don't comment on it. Find something else. It's like, or and if you don't have anything else to say, then don't say anything at all. Like that's totally like everybody just needs to take a step back. And this goes, you know, you can think that you're giving a compliment like to someone about how they look, but it can be triggering, like no matter what their body type is, um, you know, trying to focus on other things that aren't just physical appearance, and then especially for young people that are in their sports, like we are, you know, swimmers, dancers, you're scantily clad. You know, your bodies are out there on display. And it's like, oh yeah, you're you're already, we're already all so self-conscious about that. And uh, regardless of how we look or how confident we are, like everybody has their thing. And so comment like like Melissa, like you just said, like just telling somebody, hey, you look like you're a really strong swimmer. This looks like, or you look like you're having a lot of fun. Like, yeah, that's awesome. Like, I would love to find something I enjoy that much. I don't know, just like new ways of like talking about what people are doing instead of how they look doing it. Yeah. And just not saying anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

Yeah, just having people, you know. I I love Sarah Beth what you said about you look like you're having a lot of fun because I know in some of my play days at Al Qaeda, I look absolutely ridiculous out there. You know, you're such an inspiration when you do that. Man, I'm having I'm having fun. And, you know, I I think about that some days. Like I am at the heaviest I've ever been in my life. I'm in the healthiest relationship I've ever had in my life. I am just in a really, really great place. And for onlookers that don't know me, they'd probably say, I look the unhealthiest that I've ever looked in my life because of my size. And man, but I'm happy. I'm really happy. I'm having fun. I'm like chilling with you guys, the cats, my caramel frappuccino. It is a great morning. Amen. It is a great morning to be me in the skin that I'm in today. Yes. Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:13

Hell yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

Love it. Ladies, thank you so much, everyone, for joining this conversation today. Um, if you want to reach out and get in touch with any of us, Melissa, Sarah Beth, Courtney, or myself, you can reach us. Um, you can email us at that wasn't the planpod at gmail.com or go to our website at thatwasn't a plan.com or find us on social media, YouTube. You can watch all of our videos there on YouTube. Um, but we will continue to support each other and support athletes. Um whether that's dancing to swimming to rugby to table tennis and everything in between and everything that I can't even think of, right?

unknown 1:05:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

Oh, everyone. Thank you so much. It's been lovely. It's been wonderful. Thank you. And um, until next time, take care. Bye.

unknown 1:06:11

Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

Bye. Thanks for listening to That Wasn't the Plan. If you found it helpful or at least mildly entertaining, a quick rating, review, and a click on the subscribe button would be lovely. And it genuinely helps us. And if a friend comes to mind, please share. Until next time. Bye.