Emily White (00:00)
Hi Courtney. How's it going? Yeah? For the usu How was your week?

Courtney (00:01)
Hi girl, how you doing? It's good. Your lips are popping, per the use. No.

Good, good, busy, you know.

Emily White (00:10)
Yeah, mine just got really busy last night. So I've got a lot of stuff going on. it was, yeah, I agreed to take this post-producing job that I don't normally post-produce, but I have in the past. It's not really in my wheelhouse. So I'm kind of just panicked about that. I know I'm like, fake it till you make it, right?

Courtney (00:15)
really?

gosh, you got this, come on.

Exactly

and when I learned one of the most crucial lessons I ever learned working in the entertainment industry especially post-production and production was that Everybody acts like they know exactly what's going on and nobody knows what's going on and nobody knows Like when I had to it just was such a I was like, my gosh Everybody just acts like they know what's up

Emily White (00:52)
all the time, all the time. I mean, I've

been doing this now. I've been doing live action production, is, you know, when you're on set and you film all of that. I don't really do post-production except from time to time. So I've been doing that for like 23 years, but post-production, it's similar, but it's different It's different terminology and workflow and all of that.

Courtney (01:10)
Well, and I just did,

I was only the client service person. And then when the executive producer quit, suddenly they were like, Courtney, you think you can do this? And I'm like, yes. I was like, we'll see how goes. And I, it was really a very eye opening, very good education. You know, I did my best and thought I was killing it, but I really wasn't. But yeah, all the producers that would come in.

Emily White (01:26)
Eugh.

Courtney (01:36)
And sometimes they have the voice actors there and yeah, it's just a good everybody's. That's it. Wasn't then they fired me. Yeah, they had to fire me, which was understandable. They brought in a new executive producer and her and I were not meshing and which is weird because I could pretty much get along with anybody, but ⁓ it was just a bad situation anyway. Long story short. That wasn't the plan. Here we are.

Emily White (01:39)
Lovely. Well, that wasn't the plan.

Here we are. That wasn't the

Well, welcome to That Wasn't the Plan. This is episode two. Yeah, I know. And today we are discussing Plutonic friendships and when they end. And when I say Plutonic, that doesn't mean that you don't absolutely love that person. It just means it's not sexual or...

Courtney (02:01)
Hey, thanks. Welcome. Woohoo! We did did it.

sure fall in love with a friend for sure

Emily White (02:23)
romantic in any way. I know that both of us separately have gone through quote unquote friendship divorces. And we actually had one ourselves I don't know, 15, 20 years ago. Yeah, it was about that we became friends.

Courtney (02:39)
2004.

Emily White (02:40)
Yeah, 2004. I think I'd been in LA for about a year. And then we were steadfast. We were like hooked at the hip. Yeah, thick and thin. And then it was a few summers because didn't we do Coachella twice together? So I think it must have been about three-ish years, three or four years after we met that we had an implosion and

Courtney (02:49)
We were Bud Buds.

We sure did.

Emily White (03:09)
That was our death, we did not talk.

Courtney (03:11)
I'm trying to remember like honestly all I remember is that you know I fuck around I fucked around and found out about like my alcoholism and drug use was really prominent and I put us in some pretty Shady situations and so I don't really remember the the catalyst for it. I just do that. We just stopped talking. I think that's really when my life was kind of like

Emily White (03:30)
Yeah.

Courtney (03:34)
The flames were flying, the plane was coming down, so.

Emily White (03:37)
Right, yeah. I don't really recall the catalyst either, although I do remember one evening we were at a bar in Venice or Santa Monica, and I was with Bob, who I just started seeing then. you, this was after we had met those dudes on Sunset Boulevard at, where were we, the Key Club or the Viper Room?

Courtney (03:57)
That was

the night I lost my keys in my wallet and.

Emily White (04:00)
Uh-huh. And we were

stranded at like 2 AM on Sunset Boulevard with, this is like kind of, we had cell phones, but there wasn't a smartphone. So none of that existed. Do you remember that? And we went our separate ways.

Courtney (04:04)
We were.

No. Yeah. my gosh, I remember this.

We even held hands and looked at each other and were like, is this a bad idea? No, I think we're okay. We really, we were trying to be, and I was like, it's okay, I don't have my car keys. I don't have my phone. I don't have my wallet. And I was like, but I'm just gonna go home with these guys who are from New Jersey and they're staying at a hotel in West Hollywood.

Emily White (04:18)
Yep. huh.

Yeah.

Yeah!

And I was like, I don't trust those guys. I don't want to go to that hotel in West Hollywood. And up walked these two or three other guys. And they were like, ladies, are you OK? And one of them had an accent, Tasmanian Australian accent. And he was like, I don't want to leave you till you guys are OK. And lo and behold, he was an international.

Courtney (05:01)
going to school,

Emily White (05:02)
Yeah, he was going to school at UCLA. He was getting, I think, finishing up his bachelor's or master's degree. he was, I remember, he was the first Tasmanian student to go to UCLA. you're like, I'm going to go with these guys to their hotel. And I'm like, well, I'm going to go with these guys back to the dorm room at UCLA.

Courtney (05:13)
⁓ wow,

I should.

Yours sounds safer,

to be honest. But tell, correct me if I am wrong. Was he wearing a jacket that was very reminiscent of like Sergeant Pepper, Beatles? ⁓

Emily White (05:34)
Very, very likely. Yes. Yeah.

Courtney (05:35)
It was like,

I just remember it had the, I don't, and buttons. And he seemed really nice, honestly. was so.

Emily White (05:40)
Yeah, he was a very nice guy. And unfortunately,

I remember that. I went home with him that night. And then the next morning, I was like, well, can we stay in touch? And he's like, I think it must have been a Friday or Saturday night when all this happened. And he said to me, he said, come Monday, I am moving to New York for either my master's or PhD program to NYU. And that was it.

Courtney (05:48)
You

It was very nice.

Emily White (06:08)
Because it was one of those brief encounters in life where you meet somebody and you're like, wow, this could actually be something. And then he just left. But I think, to circle back, that was kind of the beginning of us separating ways because of alcohol or drugs. And then back to me being at a bar with Bob and you were there. I remember you falling asleep on the bar.

Courtney (06:13)
something great.

Emily White (06:32)
and I did a really shitty thing. I said, here are your keys. ⁓ cause that guy that you had met, I think was back in town or, ⁓ it was a guy that you met at Coachella.

Courtney (06:33)
I was just.

It was Jack. No, was,

nope, was Reggie's friend that I was with because then you put me in a cab and sent me to ⁓

Emily White (06:50)
Yeah. And I said, here are your keys.

Your car is going to expire at 11 AM tomorrow morning. And you said, remember, when Jack came in, I told him as well. And he took you. ⁓ OK. I put you in a cab. ⁓

Courtney (07:00)
He didn't come in. You put me in the cab. And Jack was like,

don't send her if she's blackout drunk. And you're like, okay. And then I arrived and I, which I probably, I remember it. So I wasn't totally blacked out. Cause I remember when the cab driver was like, I was like, do I need to pay you? They were like, uh-huh. So I was like, we go buy an ATM. So they took me to an ATM. Yeah. I mean, but what were you supposed to do? Babysit my drunk?

Emily White (07:25)
Okay.

Courtney (07:28)
Tush like, come on.

Emily White (07:28)
Well,

so then I remember vaguely, I'm not exactly sure if this is how it happened, but the next day either your car got ticketed or towed. Yeah. ⁓

Courtney (07:36)
It got towed, yeah. I didn't go back

to that area until two days later, because I stayed in South Bay with Reggie. So...

Emily White (07:41)
Yeah, that's right. That's right. And that

was it. That was, I think, the catalyst me doing a shitty thing by kind of just being like, here's my friend who's totally, she's drunk. I'm not taking care of her. I'm handing her off to somebody else. And I'm going to go do my own thing.

Courtney (08:00)
I correctly, that was also the night that I was driving us and I almost got us in a wreck. And so you were like, I'm not comfortable with you driving. So you had to drive, which I think you were pissed about because you'd also been drinking and I was supposed to be the DD. So then, you were pissed. mean, you rightfully so were annoyed at my everything, which I would have been annoyed at my everything. So what I remember is we, I went to South Bay, stayed there for two days, just being in South Bay with

Reggie and her party friends and then Jack brought me back to Santa Monica and my car was gone and then I called you well first Jack dropped me off he was like I can't deal with this right now sorry and I was like so I called you to see if you could help and you couldn't you were in the middle of something so I was like holy crap like consequences of my actions

So Elijah ended up having to come all the way to Santa Monica from Los Feliz. Took me, bought me a new dress because I'd been wearing the same clothes for two days took me to work. He had to save me a couple of times. The night that we were talking about where we were in West Hollywood, you went off with Sergeant Pepper and I went off with these dorks from New Jersey.

Emily White (08:56)
What a guy.

Courtney (09:07)
And I didn't sleep with them, by the way. just feel like that is important to share. They were terrible people, but. ⁓ See, I think. ⁓

Emily White (09:14)
I did sleep with that guy in the door room and his

roommate was there. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, not one of my finer moments.

Courtney (09:18)
Hey, he was weird.

I mean, but he turned out to be such a nice dude. These guys were not nice people. And the next morning, the one I hooked up with, they just ignored me. I saw all the Elijah and I was like, Elijah, I need you to come get me right now. So I was like, well, he's on his way. And they're like, well, they know what hotel you're at, right? And I was like, okay, so I just walked out the door and I was devastated.

Emily White (09:30)
Ugh.

Courtney (09:41)
No one had ever treated me like that. So then I get outside and I'm waiting for Elijah and I'm crying. I don't have keys. I don't have a phone. I don't have money. So the first thing he does when he picks me up, he pulls over to a gas station. He goes inside and he buys me a vitamin water and some cigarettes. It was very sweet, but he had to be done eventually too. He was, he got over it pretty quick. ⁓ But that's, that's alcoholism for you. You burn through your peeps. So.

Emily White (10:02)
Yeah.

Yeah,

it's true. Yeah, anytime you get drunk or messed up on drugs and yeah, there's always consequences. Always.

Courtney (10:13)
It's my f-

And then,

unfortunately, a lot of times people that love you end up getting you through those consequences because they love you. But then that ends up keeping me hovering over my bottom before I actually hit the floor, you know? Because people, of course you want to help. Like I would help. Like that's what our instinct is. But eventually, you know, people were wising up.

Emily White (10:30)
Right, yeah.

Courtney (10:38)
And I stopped asking for help. I stopped communicating about what was going on because I was so embarrassed. I was like, how can I not get a handle on this? repeatedly making horrible decisions. And then the next day being like, I'll never do that again. And then I'd be drunk or stoned or whatever another night later. So.

Emily White (10:57)
So yeah, did you have mutual friends with, just say, your friend group, and then slowly somebody just was maybe kind of ghosting you and eventually just left your life, but you still had mutual friends that you were talking to? Or did they slowly kind of walk out the door as well, And I'm back to kind of just maybe a friend group in LA. ⁓

Courtney (11:18)
Yeah.

Well, I've actually had it happen here in my sobriety, in my recovery. I met a new gal. She moved to town. I just fell madly in love. Like we were just cut from the same cloth. She was a hoot. She's sporty, which I'm not. I want to be sporty. And so I just was like, wow. So just, I mean, not as sporty as she, she's like a basketball. ⁓ Yeah.

Emily White (11:22)
Okay.

You're sporty.

Courtney (11:44)
like legit and so she ⁓

Emily White (11:46)
but

You're an improv dancer.

Courtney (11:47)
yes, of course.

I'm an improvisational stripper. That's really what I wanted to do. I wanted to do very powerful modern dance pieces at the strip clubs and nobody wanted to watch, which I think is garbage anyway. But yeah, and no top. So she and I became just fast friends and then it was through the pandemic and

Emily White (11:54)
There you go. Actually, yeah, that's more accurate.

with your jazz hands.

Courtney (12:13)
I mean, we were like, I was super close with her, her husband, and they have a son, who was four at the time, or three or four. Anyhow, we were friends for years. And then there was some stuff that was going down with her that I would notice. Sometimes there would be some innuendos about wanting to hook up with me. And I would always be like, it's like my sister saying something like that to me. So, I say that just because...

Eventually, she just started being super mean to me and then eventually she just told me I get so much out of all my friendships and I'm not getting anything out of this friendship and I was crushed. I was like, okay, and I was going through I was having a bunch of dental surgeries at the time life was it was just I was you know, in the valley, you know how life goes and so anyhow, she

Emily White (12:48)
⁓

Courtney (13:00)
She like no contact me and we have the same group of recovery people. So she's still acting totally normal with everybody else, but just completely iced me out and it broke my heart.

Emily White (13:11)
She didn't give

you really any reason or there wasn't a moment where...

Courtney (13:15)
Her reasoning was that she wasn't getting anything out of our friendship. it just, yeah. And it was, it was pretty devastating. I we'd been friends for years. so what ended up it being was a pretty complicated scenario. She said that she was jealous of my family, my parents, cause she got really close with my parents. And, and so she said she was really jealous of that and it was coming out sideways.

Emily White (13:18)
That's it.

Courtney (13:38)
It seems to be her pattern to get very, very close to somebody, females usually, and then kind of just pivot and drop. So I've seen it happen multiple times now. She reaches out to me pretty regularly, just being like, I think I'm thinking about you. And I'm just like, I love her husband who they're now getting a divorce. And she's in a relationship with a woman.

so it seems to be a pattern with her and I didn't see it for the first couple of years, but all my friends remained my friends. Nobody backed out, so.

Emily White (14:13)
Did she ever try to contact your family or did you try and maintain relationships with her son or friendship or did that just immediately end as well?

Courtney (14:21)
her son who is autistic, had, were on the spectrum. ⁓ You know, I adored, I loved him and then suddenly didn't see him for months and months and months. it was too painful. was like, I'm not interested in her husband. I communicate with every now and again, they are currently going through divorce, which I don't know the details of it. So, ⁓ but yeah, that was, I would say that is the most painful breakup.

Emily White (14:39)
Yeah. Yeah.

Courtney (14:46)
friendship wise, because I was so confused. She works a great program. She walks the walk, talks the talk. She's, you know, all AA, all like recovery based and then and doing all this work on herself. And I was like, has to be me. What am I doing wrong? Like, what have I done that? So it made me I mean, I was like 40 and I was like, am I not a good friend? I would like go to my my other friends and be like, am I not a good friend? They're like, you're a great friend. I was like, OK.

Emily White (15:15)
You are a good friend. Yeah, you're very good friend.

Courtney (15:16)
Thank you. Sometimes we're

all good friends and bad friends. It happens.

Emily White (15:21)
It's

true. It's true. We can have our moments when we're shitty friends and then other times when we just step up and we're really good friends. We all have shit going on in our own lives that, you know, you never know the day that somebody has had or what they're going through in that moment. And it can make them lash out in the moment or say something really mean. They don't mean it. I think it takes a lot to be actively

Courtney (15:28)
Absolutely.

Emily White (15:48)
mean and spiteful towards somebody. I think a lot of these friendships end because, you didn't have a conversation around what somebody was going through in the moment and somebody read it the wrong way or took it the wrong way. And then, you just don't talk about it. And I think that's the worst thing. And so anytime she reaches out, do you ever feel like a wound has been open or are you just kind of over it at this point?

Courtney (15:50)
for sure.

I'm over it. Yeah. I had my shower a couple of weeks ago and I did invite her just because I'm a nice person and I knew and we have we're totally like cordial, like, you know, hugs and like we have gone out to lunch here in once in a while. But honestly, I'm just not interested. Like it just. Not interested. No hatred in my heart, like no, no anger, no.

Emily White (16:12)
Okay.

Yeah.

Courtney (16:36)
just, yeah, you know.

Emily White (16:38)
So

when you do meet new people and you're like, I think I could really like this person, are you more guarded or more grateful that somebody new is coming to your life? Nice.

Courtney (16:46)
I'm more grateful, for sure.

don't feel like I'm guarded at all anymore. Which is wonderful. Another gift of recovery where I'm just like, this is me. Do you like it? Cool. If not, cool. Like, it's good. I can handle it. Because I am the number one fan in my own fan club. I would date me?

Emily White (17:06)
You are, and you have to be. You have to be your own fan.

Courtney (17:13)
I would be in a friendship with me. I would trust me with my babies. and that is not stuff I could say about myself years ago. And I remember when I was in early sobriety and I was like, would I be my own friend? And I remember thinking, I don't think I would. That was early, early sobriety, like in reflection of where I had been. And then I was like, would I date myself? And I was like, God. So now I'm like, my God, I would love to date me.

Emily White (17:27)
Aww. Yeah.

Courtney (17:39)
We have so much fun, we have so much in common.

Emily White (17:39)
I'm so wonderful.

also think it's harder to make friends as we get older. I think I read some statistics that the average adult hasn't made a new friend in five years, which means when you lose one, it feels irreplaceable. Because maybe statistically it is. And that when you do break up with a friend, it can trigger the same pain regions.

Courtney (17:48)
force.

Yeah.

Emily White (18:09)
as a romantic breakup. Sometimes more, feel like.

Courtney (18:12)
I'd say I remember you being guarded. you still guarded now? Yeah, that tracks.

Emily White (18:17)
I'm still very guarded. ⁓

It does, yes. It is hard for me to let people in. And I don't know that it always was that way. I do recall a moment in my life when I had a romantic relationship.

We broke up, he broke up with me and it destroyed me. I was inconsolable, like I couldn't eat, I was crying all the time. the only thing I could do was go to work because I had to maintain a certain professionalism and I couldn't think about it but anytime I was home alone, I couldn't be home alone, I had to be doing something all the time.

And then we got back together, we broke up, we got back together and broke up five different times.

Courtney (19:03)
What year was this one? Was this...

Emily White (19:05)
This was in LA.

And by the end of it, I was so over that romance and this person. And it completely destroyed me. I lost all trust for people. I believed all of his bullshit. And that was the thing. I had always been too trusting. And I don't know if that's a bad thing. You want to trust people. You think.

Courtney (19:17)
yeah.

Emily White (19:27)
people would be more honest and straightforward, why do we have to lie to each other? Why can't, you know, we just be trusting?

Courtney (19:34)
everybody's got their insecurities and that's some people how we protect ourselves you know

Emily White (19:39)
Yeah, so I've always been guarded and

it's very hard to break my shell. My current boyfriend, that poor lucky bastard is...

Courtney (19:47)
Poor, incredibly lucky bastard, for sure. Hey. Hey, that's the trade-off, To be with a bodacious babe like you and, you know, can't come easy.

Emily White (19:49)
He puts up with so much shit.

my

God. Well, when I'm in a good mood, it's good for him, that's a few and far between. Unfortunately, I think that's just has a lot to do with my current, you know, being a bitch, my current life, the state of me and my transformation of coming out of cancer and many other things. yeah. So back to friendships. when you see somebody that you've broken up with,

Courtney (20:09)
You being a bitch. You just being a-

of course.

Emily White (20:25)
do you acknowledge each other? I know we did, but it was very odd. So we had broken up and maybe two-ish years had gone by. And I don't...

Courtney (20:36)
Yes. Saka-chow-ya!

Sorry. Your cat just, he came, she came in and I saw her little tail. Sorry.

Emily White (20:44)
She's like,

I'm up from my morning nap. I want some nugs now. Give me the nugs. It's Churu time. She loves these Churus. It's Churu o'clock around here. Yep, it is noon every day on the dot. Churu o'clock. Yeah.

Courtney (20:48)
Give me the nuts.

True clock.

Yeah,

think I will lucky for you and me and my family. during that time, I had just given up and moved back to Northern Virginia. I knew I was going to die. so I was home for a year, so we didn't see each other obviously for that period of time and then.

Emily White (21:20)
don't even think I knew that you had gone back. ⁓ yeah.

Courtney (21:20)
I didn't tell anybody. was

very, both times that I've done that, I'm just like, whew, and I'm gone.

Emily White (21:30)
And so what

brought you back out to LA?

Courtney (21:32)
Well, I had gone to a party in Malibu after I'd moved back to Virginia to kind of see all my friends again, who a lot of them I knew from college. So we'd been friends for a long time. And I wanted them to see I was OK, and I was doing better. And I met and fell in love with the fella. And then the next day, he was like, yeah, Mike, yeah. And he, the next day after we,

Emily White (21:52)
The one fella. Yeah.

Courtney (21:59)
had romanced. It was pretty beautiful. Like it was, I would never believe when people are like, we fell love in one night. I was hook, line and sinker. And the next day when we were parting ways, he was like, I just want you to know I'm not going to be seeing anybody else. I was like, I kind of didn't believe it really at first, but yeah, we spoke on the phone for like eight hours a day and then I went back out. So anyhow, I was back out in LA in about eight, nine months after him and I met, he'd been trying to get me to come back out and

Emily White (22:13)
⁓

Courtney (22:28)
you know, my instincts were like, this is probably bad. And I, had been put on a medication by my psychiatrist and my therapist that tends to make you pretty productive in the beginning. And so I was taking care of business. And so it kind of started my next, you know, experience in LA. so yeah, that's why I came back out is because I fell in love with a boy.

Emily White (22:48)
And so I think that's when we bumped into each other at what was it like a hobby lobby or? Michael's. Michael's. Yeah, we were both in the check. Yeah, we were in the checkout line. And what did you, did you acknowledge me or did I see you?

Courtney (22:51)
Yes. Michael is in Santa Monica. He's in of me in line.

I

acknowledged you, was like, my God. And I was so stoked to see you. And we were like, my God, did we cry? We might have teared up a little bit. And then I remember, cause you were in a new space and you had your own place and you loved it. And so you ended, think you had me over, but yeah. And we just kind of picked up where we left off.

Emily White (23:10)
We may have teared up.

Yeah.

Yeah, I had just, ⁓ that's right. Was that my Los Feliz apartment? Yeah, so I just moved in there. I was making a name for myself in the production world, moving my way up the ladder. And then, our friendship didn't pick up where it left off. We weren't that close anymore.

Courtney (23:27)
Yeah.

Yeah, we weren't able to see each other, no.

But we still, I remember you met Mike. I think we all met at a bar at some point. and I think, again, I think about a year after you and I reconnected, I was on a plane back to Northern Virginia. I'd set my life on fire again. Because you, when Mike and I broke up, ⁓ I called you.

Emily White (23:58)
What happened?

Courtney (24:01)
And I stayed with you for two nights and I was hammered the whole time barfed all over your bathroom and then you had packed up my stuff, put it by the door and you were like, bye, you have to go.

Emily White (24:06)
I remember, yeah, go ahead.

Well,

I remember when you showed up at my house, I don't know what day of the week or anything it was. Yeah, it could have been to Tuesday. It was early in the morning and you showed up and I was like, let's go for a walk around Silver Lake. And so we did and you just wreaked a vodka. And then we came home and I said, all right, you can stay here, but you can't drink. And you're like, great, I don't have anything on me.

Courtney (24:19)
It was like a Tuesday.

Didn't we go to Trader Joe's then?

Emily White (24:37)
We went to Trader Joe's, got whatever, and then think we hung out for that day. And then, was I dating somebody? Anyways, I think I had left, or maybe it was in the middle of the night. You had gone and gotten some booze, because that's when you barfed all over, like literally all over the bathroom. And I went in the next morning, and it's like on the walls, around the toilet, on the floor. And I was like, motherfucker.

Courtney (24:51)
boy.

Yes.

can't even believe that i

would do such a thing i remember it, i know i did it, like it's just like...

Emily White (25:12)
I know I had, I think I had to go to work or I was leaving and I wrote you a note or I forget how it happened. And I was like, Courtney, please clean up the bathroom. And then I want you out of here because you didn't live up to your end of the bargain. And that was it. And then I, you went home and you stayed home that after that time you got into rehab. I think I had tried to touch base with your family.

Courtney (25:20)
Yes.

That's right. Yep. Yep. I went into rehab and yeah.

You did, you reached out to somebody or you reached out to me and you said, I know you're in Virginia. And I was like, can't prove a thing. I was like, I'm not anywhere, I no longer exist.

Emily White (25:45)
Yeah. you had been on my mind all the time for years. And I had tried to reconnect with you and find out how you were doing in rehab. And I understood that when someone's in rehab and going through all of that, that they don't necessarily want to talk to everybody. I understand that now after going through my own recovery, that you're coming out of something very dark.

It's hard for you. You can't go back to the life you once had. But anyway, I knew that I always wanted to be friends with you. was something, there was a connection between us and the universe had put us together so many times for whatever reason that was. Maybe it led us here today, but I'm not sure. ⁓ Anyways, did you ever think

Courtney (26:21)
Of course. Yeah.

Emily White (26:24)
during any of your friendship breakups, and I know I've had a few in my life as well, that what if I had just apologized or during those conversations you have with yourself in the shower that you're like, and I won the argument because this, she's a total bitch and I can't fucking believe she did that and blah, blah.

Courtney (26:40)
Yeah. Well, I feel like a lot of the relationships that I've lost over the years naturally moved on their merry way. And I think because I was a Navy brat and we moved around so much, found a lot I was able to set friendships free, like, which is a little cold, I think. I don't know if that's a great thing,

Emily White (26:51)
All right.

Yeah.

No, I think a lot of them run their course. especially as we're adults and move into adulthood, I don't know if I ever will, ⁓ good thing. ⁓ I think I read that friendships take around seven years, and then they will either you'll stay friends or it'll just kind of fizzle out naturally on its own. And there's not necessarily like a hard breakup. But we do. And maybe that is like the seven year cycle.

Courtney (27:21)
Yeah. Yeah.

Emily White (27:29)
that I've read or heard that you, every seven years, you kind of become a new person. So maybe this person came into your life for a reason. You were different before them. They have changed you a little bit. You've grown. And then you both have served your purposes in each other's lives. And you go your own way.

Courtney (27:33)
Yeah, I like that.

and be at peace. Well, so now I have my apartment here, but I also am living full-time with my man and the gang. And for all of my time in Southwest Virginia with all of my family, my sisters in this town and everything,

I always made it pretty easy on everybody because I go to them. I've always just gone to everybody wherever they are. I'll come to their house. come to their, you know, so now I'm not able to do that because my life has changed and shifted and my focus is different. And so I'm feeling it, you know, with a lot of my friendships because when you

Emily White (28:19)
Does it hurt?

Now that you have this, you were kind of thrust into this existing huge family. And I wouldn't say you were thrust in, there was some thrusting going on.

Courtney (28:29)
Something was trusted.

I just tried to be like, hey, yick. ⁓

Emily White (28:38)
Yuck,

I'm so sorry. See, I'm forever a child.

Courtney (28:42)
And to me, that's why the friendship endures. We endure. It's absolutely a good thing. ⁓

Emily White (28:50)
grow up. That's maybe a good thing.

Yeah, are

you sad? Like you don't quite have the strong friendships that maybe you did or it's just evolving into something else and now this family, your boyfriend, your fiance's family has become, and that's what happens is when she.

Courtney (29:11)
And it's crazy

because for so long, like, I did not want this. You know, this was not the plan for me, you know? So there's been a lot of adjusting. You know, after he proposed to me, I had to kind of sit and process that for months, which he loved. But my, you know, I have my, my women in recovery. They're like my steadfast ladies. Then I have ladies from my aerobics business.

Emily White (29:19)
Yeah.

Courtney (29:36)
And then, yeah, what's that? big time, big time splits. Just running and splitting. That's all we do to music. ⁓ yeah, who doesn't? Yes. but yeah, so people are, you know, a little bit like, we don't see you anymore. And I was like, well, cause I don't drive over to your house and come into your house. You know, that was what I did. And so you teach people how to.

Emily White (29:37)
Your high kicks. Your high kicks, business.

You're leotard ladies.

Courtney (29:59)
be your friend and not that no fault to them, you know, like I just was mobile. I had a lifestyle that I really enjoyed that I had my dog and we could do what we wanted. I could travel as much as I wanted. ain't nobody telling me when to go to bed and nobody telling me I can't eat gummy bears in the bed. Ain't nobody telling me what to eat anyway. so the friendships are, you know, they are evolving, but it's okay. It's good.

Emily White (30:12)
Yeah.

Courtney (30:25)
The one with my sister, that's been the hardest because if we don't make a really focused effort to see each other, months will go by and we'll be like, are you mad at me? And we're like, no, we're just so busy. So for my bachelorette party, I told my sister, all I want is me and you to go to King's Dominion and ride roller coasters for an entire day. Oh, it's like Six Flags, roller coasters and stuff. So we just went, oh my gosh.

Emily White (30:45)
What's King's Dominion?

fun.

Courtney (30:51)
And then we, so we went, rode the roller coasters and we were staying in a hotel together that night. So we got to be alone in our beds and no one was trying to have sex with us. And we got to just look at TikTok and laugh.

Emily White (31:04)
No one is trying to have sex with us.

Courtney (31:06)
Nobody's

trying to, and I say that like for years, nobody was trying to have sex with me and I was sad about it. And now I think back to those days and I'm like, my God.

Emily White (31:19)
can't miss those days.

Courtney (31:19)
My vagina's like,

was there such a thing? Was there such a time? That's her little voice, bless her little heart. She's always saying things.

Emily White (31:27)
Your vagina

sounds like an old woman.

Courtney (31:29)
She's so delicate now. Is it time again?

Emily White (31:34)
Where's my moisture?

Courtney (31:36)
I was literally in character as my vagina.

I hear foot steps, does he approach?

Alright, I already got my idea for my next one person show where I play my vagina Sorry, I just followed. ⁓

Emily White (31:51)
amazing. I am Courtney Holland

and this is my vagina, is it time again?

Better dust her off.

Courtney (32:06)
The plow has come early this year

Emily White (32:12)
God. to circle back to our story, we had maybe once a year, every few times a year, sent each other some Instagram memes or maybe a text here and there. And then it wasn't until I was diagnosed with cancer and I let everybody under the sun know that I had cancer.

Courtney (32:22)
Yeah. yeah.

which

is so admirable and that is what should be done. That's what you, I mean, people that don't reach out and just like, hey, help, help, like that is.

Emily White (32:40)
I did it for help. I needed the support in any way that it could show up, whether that was a text, a phone call, flowers, somebody just to come over and mow my lawn, all kinds of support. I was living alone and I had been this strong independent woman. And then all of a sudden I had this huge thing in my life. I didn't have my blood family nearby, just my chosen family out here.

Courtney (32:53)
Of course.

Emily White (33:08)
But they all had full-time jobs, their own families, all of that. So when I reached out and I cast the wide net to all of my friends, I literally went through my contact list and my emails and was like, just put it out there. Do like announcement. I've got cancer. And

Courtney (33:25)
Which actually for

you to do, I'm very proud of you, because that is a very hard thing to do, especially if you're guarded. So I think that that's one of the biggest.

Emily White (33:31)
⁓ it was,

it took two friends up here to be like, Emily, you need to put this out there. And I took my Instra. It was Sarah Beth and Lisa. Yeah, yeah, But yes, I'm very guarded. I finally took my Instagram off private. I let it go public.

Courtney (33:38)
Good. What are your names? are the two that did that?

Yes, Sarah Bethamista, Big time.

Emily White (33:58)
Yeah. And so that people, so that I could, so that I, yeah, I could kind of post my cancer journey for my friends to see. And then, you know, a few years after, or I think recently within this past year, I put it back to private. but I might open that up if for this podcast. yeah. All right. Maybe I'll do that.

Courtney (34:13)
I you, I keep mine open. Yeah. Mainly when I would

date men that had children, I wanted their exes or whoever the mama was to be able to look at me and see, you know, I was not a bad person.

Emily White (34:26)
So that means

we're going to do another question. When you break up with a friend, do you stalk them like you would a romantic person? Do you Google them and stuff?

Courtney (34:35)
Oh, for sure. Some of them. Some of them just, I'm not curious.

Emily White (34:40)
And what goes through

your head are you like, what's that bitch up to?

Courtney (34:42)
Certainly, I mean absolutely, there's been plenty of times where the people that I feel burned by or whatever, but I honestly haven't felt very burned by people except for that one friendship like in especially the recovery community, everybody's working on themselves. You know, whether it's successful or not, they are all working on themselves

Emily White (34:59)
Yeah.

Courtney (35:03)
yeah, I love to go down that fire hole, the rabbit hole. And it's fun to just see where people are at.

Emily White (35:08)
Yeah.

Do you, as time goes on, do you feel any animosity towards that person or you kind of, and it's the same with romantic breakups where, you know, at first you probably hate that person and then over time you forget the hurt and the bad that once happened and you start to be like, I wonder what it would have been like if we had been together. Should I reach out? And no, you can't, but.

Courtney (35:22)
bad.

Yeah, there's

Yeah, there are a few actually that I feel sad about because I'm just like, I'm not real sure what went wrong. But I also am really good at just letting things go. The language of letting go is a great book.

Emily White (35:44)
That's good.

The language of letting go. Okay, that's good.

Courtney (35:48)
It's a co-

dependency book. It's for

people, like Al-Anon is a support group for people that are family members that are alcoholics or drug addicts. And I just think anyone will benefit from learning how to let something go. Cause we ruminate like that's, and sometimes it's an addiction itself to just like hyper-focus on someone else's shortcomings and how can I help?

Emily White (35:57)
Yeah.

It's true.

Yeah.

Well, speaking about

So, so after I cast that big net, I did have some people that I had hoped to hear from that did not reach out. So that

Courtney (36:22)
Yeah.

Emily White (36:23)
bridge apparently was burned, probably because of something I did. I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Or who knows? Maybe they didn't get the alert, but I'm sure they did. But then other people, such as yourself, we started talking more frequently again. And then you had said, well, if you need anything at all, and I said, well, would you want to come out?

And at this point, I don't think we had actually seen each other in person in 10 years. Yeah, so you jumped on an airplane and came out for what, about 15?

Courtney (36:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, no, no, definitely not.

To be fair,

you paid for that flight. Like, you... I mean, I would have been able to swing it, but you, I mean, that was incredibly generous of you. Yeah, well, still. I was still.

Emily White (37:03)
I used miles. But it was one of those

where, again, it came back to, I've always felt strongly toward you that there is a connection that we have. And I thought every day was getting a little darker and darker for me. And you were the one person that I had always felt I could be myself around, my true self. And I didn't have to hold back. And we can joke. You can make fun of this horrible situation I'm in. And we sure did.

Courtney (37:14)
Absolutely.

Emily White (37:30)
⁓ I've got some good videos of you like drying your hair and I'm faux crying on the couch like and you're like watch watch And I'm like, I don't have any hair

Courtney (37:37)
and your friends are like that monster.

god.

I remember I asked you, was like, is this insane that I'm doing this? Cause it's so hot in the room. had to do full responsibility of that coming across as a complete, but I think.

Emily White (37:51)
the hallway and then I was like, I'm gonna-

And then you looked

at me and you're like, are you videoing this? And I'm like, I am. ⁓

Courtney (37:59)
Yeah, most people

are like, I hope she dies. No, they never said that. They're talking about me.

Emily White (38:04)
There were a few people that were, yeah, that honestly

looked at that video and they were like, Jesus, who's your horrible friend? then other people that understood that it was funny.

Courtney (38:11)
Okay.

Because

we had a laugh, we talked about it before I started. When in retrospect, I'm like, did I need to dry my hair? Like, was that necessary? Like.

Emily White (38:18)
yeah!

showing off your long dark locks right in front of my bald ass.

Courtney (38:26)
Oh my God. Good Lord.

You know, and I am like, oh, I'm so emotionally intelligent. No, man, what are you doing? Why did you have to come here?

Emily White (38:37)
But anyways, I wanted

you to come back into my life. Like I needed your sense of humor and I just needed you. So yes, it was, I was happy to, you know, give you the miles to come on out for a couple of weeks because I knew that it was hard for you to, you know, take off work even though you were fortunate to be able to work remotely. So yeah, it was, it, good, good.

Courtney (38:47)
likewise.

it really was no, it was nothing but a pleasure and an honor. I find

it very, I was extremely honored that you would want me there were, and I mean, I knew I'm like, if I get out there, man, we're gonna have a great time. We're have a great time. I'm glad that I'm here in front of her all day, every day, just keep her humble. ⁓

Emily White (39:13)
Yeah, I think we did for the most part.

Yeah.

You

Courtney (39:22)
Get off your high cancer horse. ⁓ gosh. I shaved your head that I had the most magical experience when we were swimming in the sound and that seal, that magical seal moment where I was, I, to this day, when I tell people it brings tears to my eyes, I'm like, it was the coolest. was so incredible. ⁓ he was like, what are you doing in here lady? And I'm like,

Emily White (39:24)
Let go of that ego.

That's right!

Courtney (39:50)
And then he disappeared and I'm like, whoo.

Emily White (39:53)
Hahaha!

Courtney (39:55)
I was so

scared, I mean it was such a wonderful, terrifying moment. You wouldn't think to be scared of a seal, but like when it's just you and the seal and you guys, could see you guys and you were like, yeah, and I was like, what do I do? And they're like, he's probably gonna come up to you. And I'm like, what?

Emily White (40:07)
No

⁓

Yeah, they're very curious little creatures. They're adorable.

Courtney (40:15)
Oh, that was so cool.

But to be able to be there, you know, of service to you during such a massive fucking life exploder, you know, and to be able to, you you still, you're still Emily, you're still a fricking hoot. You don't take yourself too seriously. And, you know, and I also saw the struggle of it, like, you know, the reality of what that was like for you. Oh.

Emily White (40:26)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. ⁓

So I'm so grateful that we did run into each other in Michael's because had we not, I don't think we'd be sitting here right now. Honestly, there's just no way that we would have ever really spoken again. I think it would have turned into one of those, I wonder what she's up to these days. Yeah.

Courtney (40:44)
Me too. I like it. absolutely not.

I don't

know. I feel like you and I would have reached out via Instagram and given each other funny video.

I feel like I would have reached out eventually, just something funny, maybe.

Emily White (41:07)
Okay.

you know what was really special to me is when you showed up at my house when I was going through cancer. And I think that was like the first thing you did is you said, I need to, I need to say something to you and you, you apologized and yes. And you're like, I need to do this because it's part of my step program. And as much as I wanted to say,

Courtney (41:21)
Yeah, I gave it amends That's right.

Emily White (41:31)
Please, you do not have to apologize for anything because it's 50 % on me. It wasn't just you. It did mean a lot that, yeah, yeah,

Courtney (41:37)
more me. Oh good.

it's a blessing I've been able to continue to give those to people like Elijah I gave amends to him years later. Years and years later. Caroline and Ben, you remember Caroline and Ben? I went and saw them and visited them in Ohio, met their amazing sons, made amends to them. it's yeah.

Emily White (41:51)
Yep. Yep.

Is it like a weight lifted when you do that?

Courtney (42:01)
It's not, because I feel like I've forgiven myself for... but I want it to be clear that I recognize I'm aware and take responsibility for the unsafe and poor choices and the way it affected you in your life, so...

Emily White (42:04)
Okay.

So now let me ask you, are there people in your life that you haven't made amends to because A, they are just not in your life anymore and you don't want, you don't feel the need to reach out to them or do you silently do that on your own, kind of just make amends to them through the universe and not actually physically call them or touch base?

Courtney (42:31)
Yeah, there's definitely a few that, you know, they say make amends to wherever possible except when to hurt them or others. And I feel like, because I heard a comedian talk about how annoyed he was that someone made amends to him. was like, so I'm supposed to say, congratulations for doing the right thing. Meanwhile, I've been doing the right thing the whole time. And it really made sense. I was like,

Emily White (42:40)
Okay.

Jesus Christ.

You

Courtney (42:56)
Yeah, you got a point. So

I'm not trying to bring drama into another person's life, but there are certainly people that I just have to decide that I'm making a living amends to them. So Bank of America, it's hard to make an amends to anyone specific there. not that I didn't rob a bank, I was irresponsible with my savings account. But yeah, so.

Emily White (43:07)
Okay. All right.

Courtney (43:22)
That's the really cool part of recovery, to just be able to make it about me all the time. I come to visit you while you're suffering from cancer and I'm like, let's talk about me though. First, let me dry my hair. ⁓

Emily White (43:34)
Ha

Let me show you how much hair I have.

Courtney (43:40)
I'm such a

good person. I would definitely be my friend. Oh god, it totally date me. Oh man.

Emily White (43:44)
I would definitely want to date me.

Well, is there anything else you wanna say? Touch on for this subject?

Courtney (43:53)
I think this is a wonderful topic and I think that you've had some really good stuff to share in regards to like the painful part. Like I feel like I have in my life been able to really gently shut the door on a lot of friendships and you know, it can be very, very difficult but.

Emily White (44:05)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was devastated when we broke up. Yeah, it really, it affected me a lot. And it took a couple of years, I think, for me to come out of that. But I worked on it and I had just, you everybody hurts me. I've done nothing wrong.

Courtney (44:20)
Yeah. No wonder you're guarded

It's crazy, why are people so mean to you?

Emily White (44:33)
everyone I meet just leave.

Courtney (44:35)
And who is this asshole

cancer I keep hearing about? What a bastard.

Emily White (44:39)
I would be interested to hear from our listeners to share your own breakup and loss story. how did that happen for you guys? Because yeah, I would love to read through some of these. We can even read them on air when we do some smaller episodes. And now that we have an email address that is that wasn't the plan pod at gmail.com. that wasn't the plan pod at gmail.com. It'd be nice. It'd be nice to hear from people.

Courtney (44:50)
Ooh yeah.

it.

for sure.

Emily White (45:06)
And

just because that wasn't the plan doesn't mean it wasn't supposed to happen.

Courtney (45:11)
Absolutely.

Everything that's meant to happen does.

Emily White (45:13)
Right? Yeah. Well, I guess on that note, it was good talking to you until next week. Okay, bye.

Courtney (45:19)
Until next week my dear.

Bye!